One cloudy eye-then 3 yrs later the other eye goes cloudy

[FBTmom]

Wow, KayIS, thanks for the great info!! I'm going to do a bunch of reading on the site you linked me and head into the vet's with an armload of info. I'm not too optomistic about our local vet, but I'm sure going to try. And I'll have to see if I can get the methelene blue here. I've never even heard about it.
I really appreciate your help with this, and I can't wait to hear your report. I'll report as well after I talk to the vet and see if I can get any of this stuff.

Diane

[KayIS]

Wow, KayIS, thanks for the great info!! I'm going to do a bunch of reading on the site you linked me and head into the vet's with an armload of info. I'm not too optomistic about our local vet, but I'm sure going to try. And I'll have to see if I can get the methelene blue here. I've never even heard about it.
I really appreciate your help with this, and I can't wait to hear your report. I'll report as well after I talk to the vet and see if I can get any of this stuff.

Diane

Diane,

have been treating my toad for 2.5 days now, there is some improvement, but the spot hasn't gone away completely. If anything, though, the rest of his eye looks remarkably better. I amusing the oral Baytril in liquid form. I am going to dose him for one more day, and if he isn't better - I will be taking him to see a specialist vet from the local zoo. Unfortunately, most amphibians are out of luck if they get sick. My local vet said they rarely see amphibians, which is why this is so hard.

Signs of poisoning: strange uncoordinated behavior - baytril is strong stuff, if you see this you need to stop treating your toads!

I am going to sterilize my tanks in the meantime. The paranoia about the rest of the toads getting sick is very high.

Any luck on your end?

K

[FBTmom]

Hi Kay,

I have had no luck with my vet, but I haven't given up yet.

Are you following what you originally wrote, using the methelene blue drops for the eyes, and spraying the Baytril on the toad first? Or is there a different routine you're following?

In the meantime, would you recommend trying the Maracyn (or something small pet stores would carry) in the off chance it'll stop or slow the progression of the infection? I have three toads in the tank (it's a 50/50 land water setup). One of the toads has perfectly clear eyes, but I'm thinking the Maracyn wouldn't hurt him since he has already been exposed to infection? I don't want to move him to my other (healthy) toad tank, obviously, because he may be carrying the infection even though his eyes are still clear. I'm not sure how to dose with this medicine for toads. I used it once for my fish, but the instructions in the package were for fish.

I'm not sure what to do. I haven't given up on trying your treatment advice. I'm heading out of town this weekend for a day, so I'll try other vets, but if I strike out, I'd like to at least try something over the counter. I'd just need some guidance on dosage and methods.

Thanks, Kay, and I have my fingers crossed for you. I'm frustrated with my vet, but if it isn't a cat or dog, it's a waste of time with him. It's a helpless feeling watching my two toads lose their sight.

Diane

[KayIS]

Diane,

I am doing exactly as the other forum mentioned. I spray the toad well - but just on his back - until he is most definitely wet. I leave him in a plastic container (with high sides) on a wet paper towel for 10 minutes, then I use the full strength methelene blue on his eyes. I then wait a minute, then stick him back into his tank. The treatment has worked somewhat - his eye is most definitely clearer, and the opaque area has shrunken, but it has not gone away. The other eye looks good, though, so it might be that the long term infection has caused some permanent damage. Or, it may just be a case of needing a longer dosing period because it was so huge to start with. The vet was nervous - he said he was giving me a really strong dose - but said that 3 days probably wouldn't hurt him. I have to decide whether he can take another day. I need to do more research.

The maracyn 2 didn't do anything, but it could be that the formulation is not easy for the toad to absorb through the skin - and I dosed my toad by having him sit in a solution of the maracyn 2 and water. He sat in it for 10 minutes before I moved him back to his tank. I weighed him then calculated what looked like a proper dose. I also calculated a proper dose for the gentamicin sulfate and created a bath for him to sit in as well, since he would absorb more through his skin rather than with eyedrops. Maracyn 2 is similar to gentamicin sulfate in that they are both broad spectrum antibiotics that kill sensitive gram negative bacteria, but I suspect as they both worked about the same, they either were not strong enough, or that the bacteria involved is gram positive (and Baytril will kill both positive and negative), or it might be that this is fungal in nature, but the vets are fairly certain this is bacterial, they just can't figure out what to use to kill it. I think this is likely bacterial, and probably resistant, which is why I opted for the stronger floxcin (Baytril).

My vet was good about giving me what I wanted - he admitted they rarely see amphibians (though lots of reptiles). I told him I would be seeking help next week if this didn't work - and told him that since he was out of ideas, if he'd indulge me with this request, he'd be off the hook in terms of possible bad consequences. He was most happy to mix up the medicines, and I think as some cya he then only charged me for the medicine, and not for the office visit. He also said all vets get training in exotics, just many are leery of treating pets they don't see much of. Baytril and methelene blue are really common -the latter is used for staining in labs - and Baytril is used all the time for dogs and cats, so I am sure your vet has this available. Vet didn't go for your waiver? Must be really scared of lawsuits.

I see you are in BC, isn't there a zoo or aquarium in Vancouver (or is it Victoria)? I can't remember - haven't been to BC in the past 20 years. If you have one nearby, maybe they can help you. On Monday, I head to my local zoo's exotic vet to see if he can help me. I read another forum with some poor lady whose toad has exactly what ours are suffering from - we need answers, and I am committed to finding the source of this problem. I have 4 other toads, and it will kill my child if they all end up like this. I tried the local universities, no luck. Nobody likes amphibians enough. I even tried my alma mater, but the herpetologist I remember so fondly from my school days is long gone and nobody there cares about amphibians either, not enough to be a specialist of any sort anyway. I know more than they do.

One more thing - floxcins are used for people too - and methelene blue is not by prescription. If you have a doctor friend who is willing to help you out, you may be able to obtain a liquid form of the floxcin. You'd have to be good at math so you can mix up a proper dose, but this is another possible route for you. In a pinch, I have known medical professionals who have prescribed medicines to their dogs, etc. to treat certain illnesses when there was no vet available. This is a tough route, though, and you'd have to pay out of pocket, unless you have some sort of insurance for pets. Floxcins are not cheap. It would be better to work on your vet. Isn't there someone else s/he could refer you to? You might ask the vet point blank waht it would take for him/her to feel comfortable with this.

Good luck - and I'll be back again if there is any change.

K

Hi Kay,

I have had no luck with my vet, but I haven't given up yet.

Are you following what you originally wrote, using the methelene blue drops for the eyes, and spraying the Baytril on the toad first? Or is there a different routine you're following?

In the meantime, would you recommend trying the Maracyn (or something small pet stores would carry) in the off chance it'll stop or slow the progression of the infection? I have three toads in the tank (it's a 50/50 land water setup). One of the toads has perfectly clear eyes, but I'm thinking the Maracyn wouldn't hurt him since he has already been exposed to infection? I don't want to move him to my other (healthy) toad tank, obviously, because he may be carrying the infection even though his eyes are still clear. I'm not sure how to dose with this medicine for toads. I used it once for my fish, but the instructions in the package were for fish.

I'm not sure what to do. I haven't given up on trying your treatment advice. I'm heading out of town this weekend for a day, so I'll try other vets, but if I strike out, I'd like to at least try something over the counter. I'd just need some guidance on dosage and methods.

Thanks, Kay, and I have my fingers crossed for you. I'm frustrated with my vet, but if it isn't a cat or dog, it's a waste of time with him. It's a helpless feeling watching my two toads lose their sight.

Diane

[FBTmom]

Hi Kay,

Any more improvement with your toad?

[KayIS]

Diane,

THe specialist from the zoo told me the eye cloudiness is likely lipid keratopathy, which is essentially a harmless cholesterol deposit in the eye. This is largely caused by a single insect diet - and crickets are a big culprit. He recommended feeding all my toads wild bugs - except fireflies and not ants (which he said they don't like eating). Highly recommended were maggots, small worms, wingless flies, and beetles. Lots of beetles. So my daughter is out bug catching. THe deposits may or may not resolve with the new diet, but they shouldn't increase. He will have a confirmation of his diagnosis on Thursday - he took a scraping of the toad's eye and was looking at it with the microscope.

Sometimes cloudiness is bacterial - so he did say the Baytril was a good idea, but he also said just one drop in the eye was sufficient. I am to stop treatment if I see no further improvement. I do notice both eyes are much clearer, and the toad's activity level has picked up - he seems much more like his old friendly self. I was warned gentamicin sulfate is known to cause neurological damage if overdosed, so he didn't recommend using that at all. He was neutral on the maracyn 2.

My toad is also spinning, and the vet was far more concerned about this - he suspects lungworms, or irido virus, so I went home with 2 different treatments: levamisole (184mg/0.5L water bath) and metronidazole (250 mg/1L water bath) to treat the toad by soaking for 24 hours each. If the spinning stops, I am to then treat everybody else in the other tank, and to sterilize everything down again. This is commonly spread through infected feces, so keeping things scrupulously clean is essential as well as reducing the bioload by having a larger tank or more filters or changing water more often, etc. You have a pretty big tank, so I would think that maybe more water changes or a second filter would be good. Getting out any leftover dead bugs and removing waste is very important. Metronidazole you might recognize as flagyl, and I believe that can be bought otc. The other one I am not so sure. Both are in pill form. Levamisole is well tolerated by frogs, so the vet said not to be afraid of this.

Have your toads improved?

K

[KayIS]

Whoa! beware the levamisole! Despite his assurance that this was well tolerated, my toad was only in there for 1.5 hours before I whipped him out and rinsed him because he looked dead and unresponsive. He revived with some rinsing, and he is now sitting and looking normal in a bath of 3ml salt to 1 gallon of water. Will be speaking to the specialist tomorrow!

I think I also had a near death experience this afternoon....

Kay