UVB lighting??

[Kaeru79]

Hi all!
I looked through the forum and tried the search tool before deciding to post about this, just to make sure I wasn't asking something that had been answered a hundred times already
SO I am wondering if UVB lighting is *really* necessary for white's. We have dragons so we know how the whole UVB thing works and the risks of MBD. If my Dumpy needs it, he'll definitely get one but I'm kind of confused because there are some sites I'm finding that say they must have it, and others either say it's not necessary or don't mention them at all. For example, the book I'd read at the pet store before I got my Dumpy said they don't need them, and the care sheet on here doesn't say anything about it.

Some of the sites I saw mentioned that the UVB is only needed if you suspect that the frog might have MBD, otherwise supplements alone should be okay. Does anyone have white's that do not have UVB lighting?

Speaking of supplements - does anyone have a favorite kind? My reptiles get their crickets dusted and I was using that for my Dumpy but I was thinking maybe I should get something more specific for a frog? I got him more crickets today and that store didn't have any supplements for frogs though. I'm gonna look at a few other places and see what I can find but figured I'd ask for opinions on that too.
Thanks!
Emily

[Kurt]

I have over forty frogs and not one has a UV light. Its just not needed. Some diurnal frogs may benefit from it, but the jury is still out on that. Nocturnal frogs, such as treefrogs don't need it and thats why its not mentioned in the care article.

For supplements, I am using all ZooMed stuff.

[Kaeru79]

Thanks!! I was kinda figuring that it wasn't really needed, but it's reassuring to have someone say theirs don't have it and are fine lol. Cause I would feel so guilty to find out later that it was essential for him. I had a rescue dragon with MBD and it's really sad to see animals in that condition

Emily

[Kurt]

Well, crocodilians, most lizards and most turtles need UV to process vitamin D, but amphibians, nocturnal & fossarial lizards, snakes, and some turtles don't need it at all.

[John]

Amphibians are not Reptiles. In fact, it could be argued that you have more in common with Reptiles than Amphibians do - for example, amnion (the sac around reptile and human embryos) and the structure of your heart (amphibians have a three chambered heart, reptiles and people have 4 chambers). There's a long list.

[Herpvet]

Hi all!
I looked through the forum and tried the search tool before deciding to post about this, just to make sure I wasn't asking something that had been answered a hundred times already
SO I am wondering if UVB lighting is *really* necessary for white's. We have dragons so we know how the whole UVB thing works and the risks of MBD. If my Dumpy needs it, he'll definitely get one but I'm kind of confused because there are some sites I'm finding that say they must have it, and others either say it's not necessary or don't mention them at all. For example, the book I'd read at the pet store before I got my Dumpy said they don't need them, and the care sheet on here doesn't say anything about it.

Some of the sites I saw mentioned that the UVB is only needed if you suspect that the frog might have MBD, otherwise supplements alone should be okay. Does anyone have white's that do not have UVB lighting?

Speaking of supplements - does anyone have a favorite kind? My reptiles get their crickets dusted and I was using that for my Dumpy but I was thinking maybe I should get something more specific for a frog? I got him more crickets today and that store didn't have any supplements for frogs though. I'm gonna look at a few other places and see what I can find but figured I'd ask for opinions on that too.
Thanks!
Emily

Hello,

Just a dissenting view here : ). I believe the jury is still out on the need for uv lighting for amphibians. There is a similar discussion at caudata.org (UV lights in the care of caudates - Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Forum) which it might be worth taking a look at, although no firm conclusions were reached.

Certainly it is true that excessive uv B has been shown to be harmful to tadpoles of certain species, and I would always advocate that in amphibian enclosure uv lighting should never be too pervasive - they should always be able to get away from it fully if they wish, as well as partially hide from it.

I think there is enough doubt about requirements - particularly for species such as white's tree frogs, where there is a suggestion of diurnal activity and even basking - that some should be available in most amphibian enclosures (I'm not advocating it for olms, for example : )). Perhaps the best apporach would be as with temperature - provide a reasonably wide range of uv illumination initially, then adjust according to the animal's behaviour. Under such circumstance it is very unlikely to do any harm.

Not saying they definitely require it, just saying there's insufficient data at the moment in most cases, in which case supplying a low level, easily avoided source to the animals seems most sensible.

Just another view : ).

Bruce.

[Herpvet]

Hi sorry, just to add - if you really want to do it properly (and maybe provide useful data for general use), getting serial radiographs of your frogs would be the best (practical) way to assess bony density.

Bruce.

[John]

Bruce, I think at best that your experiment is of secondary importance (and it would take a while to get definitive results). In my opinion, the way to study this would be to monitor levels of vitamin D production in frogs exposed to UV light and a control group that is not exposed to UV light. I would think the results would be pretty conclusive and I wonder why no one has bothered to do this (or maybe they have...?).

[Herpvet]

Bruce, I think at best that your experiment is of secondary importance (and it would take a while to get definitive results). In my opinion, the way to study this would be to monitor levels of vitamin D production in frogs exposed to UV light and a control group that is not exposed to UV light. I would think the results would be pretty conclusive and I wonder why no one has bothered to do this (or maybe they have...?).

Hi John,

True, that would also be very useful - not done as far as I am aware (would love to get more details of this conference mentioned on the caudata.org discussion, but no luck so far)! But that's why I said best (practical) way - vitamin D3 monitoring requires serial blood samples (not sure of minimum volume required, but I suspect not insignificant for even a white's), with attendant difficulties and risks (I personally wouldn't consider the alternative acceptable, multiple frogs with sacrificing some/all for liver D3 levels or similar).

Just to widen it slightly, I also feel the importance of uv-A gets left out of these discussions (I know the topic title is uv-b, but..). Important stimulator of activity in many species, and may be beneficial even in amphibians.

Bruce.

[1beataway]

Even after Kurt telling me that frogs don't need UV lights, I find it so hard to tell my customers that they don't need to get UV lights for their new frogs.

Personally, I enjoy how every night when I turn my White's light off, they immediately wake up and go into action. I'm not sure how this would be different if they had no light.

[Kurt]

Basically it would be the same. Most of my frogs do not have over head lights and they still sleep during, awakening only after the lights are out.

[John]

The majority of tree frogs in captivity are nocturnal. They don't get exposed to sunlight anyhow. This includes White's Tree Frogs. If you think just because your tree frog sleeps on a branch that receives light during the day that they do that in the wild, all the tree frogs would be dead from dessication. Anyone who has done any field work with nocturnal tree frogs can tell you that they are extremely difficult to find during the day and one place you don't look is branches exposed to sunlight.

[1beataway]

I guess what you two say makes sense. I think it's partly because the importance of UV lights for all reptiles and amphibians was one of the "basics" I learned at my job, and it's a little hard to completely forget that rule. My White's will still get the light though, for the plants if nothing else.

Field work with frogs sounds like so much fun, btw.