Please help me diagnose the death of my RETF!

[moviescolin]

Hello all, I've had another thread up for a few days about caring for my newly aquired Red Eye's, however this morning I awoke to my little male frog lying on the ground expired. This saddens me a great deal; however I'm much more enthrawled with figured out exactly what factor(s) contributed to it's death and to prevent them from happening to my female frog (who seems healthy.)

Here are the basic questions that need to be answered:

1-size of enclosure
I am using a 12x12x18 Zoo-Med NT-2. I was told from several sources that this would be okay for a while (1-6months) while I save for a bigger enclosure.

2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
Two red-eyed tree frogs, one female (about an 2 inches long from nose to butt) and one (expired) male (about 1.25-1.5 inches from nose to butt)

3-humidity
Anywhere from 60-80%, depending on the time of day. I mist them down twice a day (morning/night) and as needed to bump the humidity.

4-temp
Daytime: 75-80F, Nighttime: 65-70F without heat lamp on, 70-75F with lamp on.


5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
Both misting and the water portion of the tank uses bottled spring water.

6-materials used for substrate
Layer of LECA, Exo-Terra Forest moss, Eco-Earth, and a minute amount of Forest Moss on top of the Eco-Earth.

7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
Four branches inside the enclosure - used with different reptiles before/no bugs/washed them prior to use
One live Dracaena Deremensis Ulises, artificial philodendron leaf, artificial pothos vine, and it had a few Neanthe Bella Palm stalks before I yanked them out to
put more branches in. There is a "pond", the length of the enclosure, about 3 inches wide, and about an inch deep.

8-main food source
Dusted crickets, however I can't seem to tell if the frogs are actually eating any. For every 10 that I offer them (4 a night), one or two is missing. The crickets are placed into a ceramic bowl which they cannot escape from.

9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often )
No vitamins, calcium powder on every other night of feeding crickets. I do however have some Zilla Vitamin Supplement Spray on hand.

10-lighting
Daylight: 12 hours of light with a 60watt "Blue" daylight bulb with UVA. Supplement heating and night lighting (which turns off when I go to bed) is a 50watt Exo-Terra NightGlo light. It's a blacklight, essentially.

11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
Lighting and the ambient temperature of the room.

12-when is the last time he ate
I have absolutely no idea. =/ The last day there was a cricket missing was yesterday morning.

13-have you found poop lately
I have found some poop in the "pond' area every time I change the water. Not a lot, but a few excrement.

14-a pic would be great ( including the frog ) any little cell phone pic is fine
This isn't embedded, to save the squeamish, but this is a picture I took of the dead frog after I put him in a zip-lock baggy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...n/deadfrog.jpg
This is a picture of the female:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...71047677_n.jpg

15- how old is the frog
Not sure. I was hoping somebody could tell based on size.

16-how long have you owned him
Got them both on the 15th of April, so about a week and a half.

17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred
Captive bred from a Vendor at the local Reptile Expo.

18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats
Crickets, I tried putting some mealworms in a seperate dish last night. None of the mealworms or crickets where missing this morning.

19- about how often the frog is handled
Once by the vendor, once into a "holding" tank, once into the current tank.

20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area
Low traffic, in the corner of my bedroom with two of the glass panels blacked out. (the panel that views the bedroom doorway and the panel that views the back)

21- describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
Water change every 2-3 days (the pond area holds about 1.5 liters of water), spot clean every day. Mist twice a day or as needed.

Please help! Any other questions, I'd be happy to answer. I'd like to think it wan't from bad husbandry, however the fact that it survived a week and a half in my care leads me to believe that I've neglected some certain fact and killed it by ignorance.

[InfinitysDaughter]

You say you have a little bit of moss that could come in direct contact with the frogs correct? Do they hunt there food at all? The male almost looks like he was starved to death which could have meant he got a bit of moss in him and it caused impaction which caused him not to eat.

Its also possible that he wasnt getting enough vitamins. Some frogs dont need it as badly while others require addition of vitamin dust. I never dusted my crickets till I got my Pac (who turned into my Whites...long story) but even now I only dust with calcium and gut load with vitamin enriched cricket food. My Green and my Gray never needed the extra vitamins (been gut loading since I got my Green a few months after the Gray) or the extra calcium and I only started dusting because Pacs are notorious for bone density diseases if they dont get enough calcium. I just went ahead and do it now because, well, it can only help rather then hurt. But I know my co workers say they dust with vitamins every few feedings (not at the same time as the calcium dust) even though they also gut load. I've heard of Greens, Grays, and Whites all becoming ill without vitamin dust supplements even though mine are just fine. Its just a variation in the species.

The last thought I had was stress caused him not to eat. And that may have been something you could not help. Some fogs are high strung (for lack of a better word). That Pac I mentioned, he almost died because he was very very stressed while I had him. I dont entirely know why. His heat, humidity, and enclosure were all set up according to both advice from co workers and people here. He had an eye infection the first week I had him, though, and he spent a week back at the store in there hospital ward and when he came home he seemed fine. But a day or so later he stopped eating no matter what I did. I eventually took him back so they could try and find out what was wrong. It made me feel a little sad because he ended up starting to eat almost immediately upon returning to the store. I dont know why he was so stressed when I had him and to this day no one can tell me why he wouldn't eat for me, its just how it was. He didn't act any different from any other pac man sept he wouldn't eat.

So, like I said, its plausible that it was something you could not help. I would lean more towards the stress option and my second pic would be impaction. Its possible a lack of vitamins but, well, I honestly doubt it. He would have eaten but just looked sickly then passed. Are you feeding them the same thing the original owner fed them? A drastic change in diet could cause stress too.

I hope that long and rambly reply was at least somewhat helpful. I'm so very sorry to hear this happened at all. Its never easy loosing a pet. They become part of your life, your family, and your heart so very quickly that when you loose them it hurts. I hope you can find peace with your little girl. She seems healthy and happy from her pic.

[moviescolin]

I suppose the moss could've caused impaction, however I feed the crickets in a cricket-proof bowl, and most of the time none of the crickets were missing. The original owner fed them crickets as well.

The long and rambly reply was very appreciated - I like long-winded answers.

I moved the female into a "quarantine" tank; paper towel, all fake plants, ect. And now she is not looking too good. Her skin is a marbled light/dark green. What are some symptoms of over-heating? Could this have caused the male to stress out or not eat?

[flybyferns]

I suppose the moss could've caused impaction, however I feed the crickets in a cricket-proof bowl, and most of the time none of the crickets were missing. The original owner fed them crickets as well.

The long and rambly reply was very appreciated - I like long-winded answers.

I moved the female into a "quarantine" tank; paper towel, all fake plants, ect. And now she is not looking too good. Her skin is a marbled light/dark green. What are some symptoms of over-heating? Could this have caused the male to stress out or not eat?

Hi ,
You did not over heat your frogs based on the settings posted in post #!
The settings in the enclosure were fine.
They were likely sick when you purchased them . I would demand a refund!!
The frog in the previous post (#3) is very ill and needs a vet asap!! I'm so sorry.
Did you see this ?
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...-prepared.html
You need to move things along very quickly!!!
Lynn

[moviescolin]

In retrospect, the guy we bought the two frogs from seemed to be in a rush to make a quick buck. He was selling them at $20 a piece, so perhaps he knew there was something wrong with them?

Anyways, I'm trying as fast as I can to get it some help. This frog has only started showing the mottled skin today.

[DonLisk]

I agree with Lynn here totally. These frogs have had to been with issue when you purchased them.

20.00 for a captive bred RETF seems low even for purchases at an expo.

Has the skin discoloration on the surviving frog been normal until the move to the quarantine tank? The initial photo in post #1 she is looking healthy and alert and after reviewing your setup I see nothing out of the ordinary to cause this type of reaction/illness.

Medically, there is nothing I could suggest and this poor little one needs to see a vet immediately.

[DonLisk]

I would contact Dr. Frye via email if you can not get this frog to a vet immediately. Send him photos of your frog and explain any symptoms, origin of the frog and husbandry of the frog now. His email is dr.Frye.dvm@sbcglobal.net
He is not in Wednesday but will be back into office Thursday morning.

[flybyferns]

I would contact Dr. Frye via email if you can not get this frog to a vet immediately. Send him photos of your frog and explain any symptoms, origin of the frog and husbandry of the frog now. His email is dr.Frye.dvm@sbcglobal.net
He is not in Wednesday but will be back into office Thursday morning.

Attention Don:
I sent - in reply - the link to :
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...-prepared.html

The email in this 'first aid' post is different than the one here?
Are they both ok to use to contact Dr Frye?

Lynn

[DonLisk]

Attention Don:
I sent - in reply - the link to :
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...-prepared.html

The email in this 'first aid' post is different than the one here?
Are they both ok to use to contact Dr Frye?

Lynn

I just went and check my contacts and the dr.Frye.dvm@sbcglobal.net one is the address he emailed me from so maybe the other is only for paying him? I'm going to add this address to that post and thanks for picking up on that.

[moviescolin]

Unfortunately I do not think it is going to make it through the night.

The coloring might have been slightly there before, however I only noticed it today. The tank glass was cleaned with vinegar and wiped down with spring water, and allowed to sit for an hour and air out.

After the lights went out, the frog was in the water dish (spring water) and started to jump about frantically, had trouble getting off of it's back (was lying on it's back on the cage floor.) Then she laid on the floor, doing what looked like gasping. I felt so heartbroken.

Something I also noticed today while it was in the water dish was that her stomach looked distented and orange, with a red sore spot.


However I am somewhat relieved that this fiasco wasn't my doing.

[DonLisk]

So Sorry to hear. What are the chances something got into the water that might be causing this such as the vinegar or from the vendor of the water?
I only think this direction because the frog did go to the water and then this occurred. Might be something to check.
It may not be related but you just never know without having the water tested.

[moviescolin]

Well it was showing the discoloration before the water, but soaking in the dish seemed to aggravate it quite a bit.

As for vinegar getting in there, not a chance. The tank was empty until it was all aired out and odorfree, then I put everything in. I'll check the label of the spring water and see if I notice anything absurd.

[S13]

I use Ozarka spring and hasn't failed me yet. Also, touching on the expo subject. My first white's didn't make it past 2 weeks after bringing her home. I also saw that the same people that I got her from were selling RETF for 20 a piece also. My baby white's I got from petco is plump, green , and healthy (from what I can see at least). He's a bottomless pit. With that said, I probably won't purchase from expos anymore. Unless they are reputable breeders.

[BlueisallIneed]

I would take her immediately to the vet, that is not good at all. For your male, I think he starved to death. He was way too skinny. Those expo shows are a rip off and your frogs prolly have parasites or some kind of infection. With my experiences all expos have been horrible, the animals die or are sick to begin with and you have to spend a **** load to get them well by a vet! Sorry for your loss and get the other one checked out ASAP!

[moviescolin]

No go, the female expired overnight.

[flybyferns]

Oh! I'm so sorry
It's such a shame-you got a raw deal.
I would make sure the person you purchased the frogs from is aware of what has happened!

When your ready - there are very reputable breeders you can purchase from online.

Lynn

[BlueisallIneed]

No go, the female expired overnight.

I am so sorry sweetie. That is awful. I would definitely raise hell on those people! I would report this pictures included to the head of the expo. Someone needs to stop this from happening! again sorry for your loss

[FrogFever]

I'm sorry to hear about your losses. I know how hard it can be to watch such a gorgeous frog die. You feel so helpless and it just eats at you inside.
From my own personal experience this is very common with red eyes. I've had multiple ones from different sources and literally half of them died from bacterial infections. I've ordered Baytril from DR. Frye and it did help save a couple of them. The only ones I never had problems with were the captive bred ones from Mike Novy.
I have umpteen different kinds of frogs and none of them, EVER, have had bacterial infections or rectal prolapses like the red eyes do. Definitely not a beginner frog imo.
Once again, I am so sorry for your loss. Just know that you are def not the only one.
If you got adult red eyes for $20 bucks each then my guess is that they were wild caught and littered with parasites to begin with.

[TheFroggyDragon]

Sorry for your loss
I sent you a private message moviescolin.

[wkcheng2]

Sorry for your loss! I have encountered similar problem before. I have brought a very beautiful female RETF in a local shop (Pic1).


After a week, she stopped eating, losing weight and discoloration (Pic2).


Few days later she died. I conducted an autopsy on it, and I found that (Pic3-9) more than several hundred nematodes living in the lung of the frog.



I just want to emphasize the importance of quarantine. Even though you thought that the newly acquired frog is in very good condition, you should separate it from existing collections and keep it in the quarantine tank to monitor the health of the frog for 1-3months (if possible conducting fecal examination and anthelmintics).

In your case, I think that your setting is fine. You just bought a sick RETF. And without autopsy, it is difficult to know the cause of death.