Trouble in the Enclosure

[GrifTheGreat]

Well Kaitlyn I can honestly say that he is in trouble. He is malnourished and was trying to aestivate. He appears to be severly stunted as well. He should be much larger than he appears.

I'll start with the problems.



First there should never be a dry side in the tank. A warm and cool side providing a climate gradient is fine, but the coconut fiber should never be dry anywhere. It should all be moist or heavily damp. Also you should be using dechlorinated tap water or natural spring water. The pond water will contain oarasites and bacteria that will make your frog sick. Change that immediately!

Second he should be fed much more than 3 times a week and if this is howbyou have been feeding him since you got him then this explains the start or MBD and his malnourishment. Babies and juviniles should be fed daily to every other day and once they reach adulthood it is fine to feedp them every couple days. He also needs a calcium supplement that contains Vitamin D3 to allow him to metabolize the calcium to bone. He also needs a reptile/amphibian multivitamin. Calcium dusting should be every other feeding and the multivitamin dusting only once a week.

My advice is to go out and buy some Unflavored Pedialyte, Fluker's Repta-Boost, honey, and he supplements I mentioned above.

Until he is strong enough to eat on his own I would force feed him the Rept-Boost according to the dosage directions in the box.

Also prepare a medicated soak of Unflavored Pedialyte, luke warm dechlorinated water, and honey. The bath should be no deeper than up to the frog's chest. Prepare it as follows;

Prepare a luke warm bath(78°F to 80°F) at a 10 to 1 ratio. So for every 10 ounces luke warm dechlorinated water add 1 ounce unflavored Pedialyte. Add 3 drops of honey to the bath and dissolve it in. Place the frog in the bath and soak him for 15 to 20 minutes or until the bath cools. After time is up or the bath has cooled prepare a second luke warm dechlorinated bath of just dechlorinated water to rinse him off and keep his body temp up to par. After this bath is complete then give him his dose of Repta-Boost. Do this daily and it is ok to go ahead and offer him crickets, but take the hind legs off of them so they can't jump. Tjis makes them very easy prey.

You can mix a small amount of calcium powder and multivitamin in with the Repta Boost that you are going to give him so that he gets an extra boost, but only do this every 3rd or 4th dose so that he doesn't get vitamin toxicosis.

His day temps should be 80°F to 82°F and night temps should hover around 78°F. Humidity should be 70% to 80%.

If you can post some good pictures of his enclosure and more of him so I can look him over.

Also just so you know Earthworms are pretty much the best feeder for frogs. They are highly nutritious and easy to digest.

Keep me posted.

[kaitlynj0]

I have moistened the other side of his tank. Unfortunately that advise was given to me by a local man who owns a large amount of pacmans, I feel as if there is no one opinion that is correct. Everything I read seems to vary, even just slightly, from the previous. I feed him every other day, which is actually 4 times a week I suppose. I had been feeding him every day but he wasn't eating. He was not interested in his food, and I even tried other foods. I never tried earth worms though. I am going tomorrow to get those things and will try the pedialyte. I believe the Calcium I am using does have D3 in it. Will this help his back to go back to looking normal?

So grateful for your help. He has been doing wonderful, but right when he stopped being interested in his food (maybe a month and a half ago) he has been less "himself" but I could not tell anything was really wrong with him until this happened.

I would like to bring the temp. up in his cage but I am not sure what the best way to go about this is. A heat lamp? Perhaps another heating pad on the side? I am afraid that will bring it up too far. The only solution I have right now is to turn my heat up, which is not a long term fix.

We love our frog and I would like to keep him around for as long as possible.

[GrifTheGreat]

I have moistened the other side of his tank. Unfortunately that advise was given to me by a local man who owns a large amount of pacmans, I feel as if there is no one opinion that is correct. Everything I read seems to vary, even just slightly, from the previous. I feed him every other day, which is actually 4 times a week I suppose. I had been feeding him every day but he wasn't eating. He was not interested in his food, and I even tried other foods. I never tried earth worms though. I am going tomorrow to get those things and will try the pedialyte. I believe the Calcium I am using does have D3 in it. Will this help his back to go back to looking normal?

So grateful for your help. He has been doing wonderful, but right when he stopped being interested in his food (maybe a month and a half ago) he has been less "himself" but I could not tell anything was really wrong with him until this happened.

I would like to bring the temp. up in his cage but I am not sure what the best way to go about this is. A heat lamp? Perhaps another heating pad on the side? I am afraid that will bring it up too far. The only solution I have right now is to turn my heat up, which is not a long term fix.

We love our frog and I would like to keep him around for as long as possible.

You can use a lamp, but make sure it is a Fluker's 5.5" or 8.5" clamp lamp with DIMMER SWITCH. only use 50 watt bulbs or less and use a Exo-Terra 75% intense basking light bulb or something similar for day. The concentrated beam allows you to add supplemental heat without dialing the bulb up full blast. Use infrared at night. Both should be of the same wattage.

You coukd add a second UTH instead but they can't be reduced in heat without a thermostat.

If you haven't already cover 3/4 of the screen lid of your frog's enclosure with plastic wrap or aluminum foil to hold heat and humidity in.

You cannot fix his back, but you can stop it from becoming worse. What I've suggested will help stop the MBD, but any damage already present cannot be reversed.

Keep me posted.

[jmor]

Hope this provides some insight
1. 5 gal ( which provides about 10-12 times the floor space he takes up)
2. 1 frog (horatio, the albino c. cranwelli)
3. 65-80% humidity
4. 70-80 degrees
5. bottled, distilled water for both this dish and the spray bottle
6. 2" of coco fiber on top of gravel
7. water dish on the cool side of the tank, a piece of wood from the pet store (for a hide), beaked moss around the water dish and on the opposite wall to hide the heatpad
8. crickets, crickets, crickets. On a few occasions I have given him wild caught earthworms.
9. up until 2 weeks ago he was getting cal./d3 every feeding. now every other feeding
10. no lighting. some diffused natural light from a window, but thats it
11. I have a heat pad, and he gets some ambient heat from the light on my ball python enclosure
12. Ate 3 wax worms yesterday (first time feeding him those)
13. found a small poop 5 days ago
14. pics to come
15. frog is between 12-18 mos old
16. I've had him for 9 mos
17. cb
18. almost no food diversification
19. I only handle him when I change out the substrate
20. The enclosure is in my office. I dont work from home or anything. He sees people but doesnt have constant traffic.
21. Spot clean as needed. Water changes when soiled or twice a week (whichever is more often). Mist daily. Complete substrate change every 3-4 mos

As I read through this thread, I see there are a few questionable answers on my list. I am always open to criticism when it comes to the lives and health of my pets Thank you guys so much for your help and consideration.

[Lija]

jmor - i would change following:
-humidity, keep it at about 75-80, 60 - too low
- temps, 70 too low, you want to keep at about 76-78(night) and 80-82(day)
-food - nightcrawlers ( not wild) and roaches, while crickets are ok on once in a while, they are not the most nutritious food out there.
-water - never ever use distilled water! only spring water or treated tap water is good for them, distilled is ok for a fogger or spray bottle.
-you said you dust with Ca/vitd3, you need to dust with multivitamins once a week.

-water changes have to be done EVERY day and every time after frog was in there. complete substrate change once a month!

[jmor]

noted. thanx lija, the appropriate changes will be made! I do gutload my crickets to get some extra nutrition to the frog. Any opinion on dubia roaches? Do you dust all feeders?

[GrifTheGreat]

noted. thanx lija, the appropriate changes will be made! I do gutload my crickets to get some extra nutrition to the frog. Any opinion on dubia roaches? Do you dust all feeders?

Definitely follow the advise that Lija has given. I would like to elaborate on a few things.

1. The five gallon is fine for his size. Even when they are in large enclosures, they tend to return to the same two or three spots to burrow. The small enclosure can become an issue if the substrate isn't changed often enough. Horned frogs urinate a LOT. Since you have a drainage layer, he/she isn't sitting directy in his urine constantly, but it still can be a problem. In a small enclosure the urine will built up faster and cause health problems.

3. As Lija said, try to keep the humidity steady at 75-80. You will probably have to mist two or three times a day.

4. Again, Lija has provided the correct temperature range.

5. Distilled water should only be used for misting. It is ok in the smaller amounts that misting provides. However, distilled water has no minerals in it. When the frog is exposed to only distilled water for extended periods of time, the water will actually pull nutrients out of the frog causing health problems. Lose of appetite and malnourishment is a very common result. Use de-chlorinated water for his water dish and for expanding the substrate. De-chlorinator is fairly cheap and with one frog a bottle should last you months.

6. Do you have a terrarium carpet or something along those lines to separate the gravel from the substrate? Because these are burrowing frogs, they tend to make a mess of things. The gravel will get mixed in with the substrate as time goes one. Gravel does pose a risk of impaction if swallowed. Often in their enthusiasm to get their food, they will also swallow whatever is around the food. Coco fiber passes through their system much easier, hence why it is the recommended substrate for them.

7. Same with moss; it also causes a risk for impaction. Does your frog tongs feed? This will reduce the risk of swallowing unwanted substances.

8. Crickets are ok, but not ideal. Nightcrawlers are the best staple diet. They are also must easier to keep than crickets. Please note that any feeder taken from outside carries the risk of containing pesticides or parasites. Better safe than sorry. Wax worms are ok for a treat but not as a staple. Their skin does not usually get digested by the frog. So don't be surprised if you see a couple of wax worms skins (kind of like deflated balloons) in the next bowel movement. Dubias are good for them, but some Pacs are picky about eating them. Only a couple of mine will even eat them. As a result I have an out of control dubia colony! Yikes!

10. Consider getting a lamp. I highly recommend getting one with a dimmer switch so that you can tweak the temp. Try a Fluker's 5.5" or 8.5" clamp lamp with a dimmer switch. Do not go above 50 watt bulbs. 50 or less and use a Exo-Terra 75% intense basking light bulb or something similar for day. The concentrated beam allows you to add supplemental heat without dialing the bulb up full blast. Use infrared at night. Both should be of the same wattage.

Please post pictures as soon as possible. Keep us posted.

[jmor]

I have nothing serparating the gravel from the coco fiber, but it is large gravel and I dont think it poses an impaction risk. He feeds off tongs (to avoid eating anything he isnt supposed to). I have water conditioner I use for my sons fish, so I willl start treating his water dish water. He is definitely a burrower. At one point I had closer to 4" of coco fiber in his enclosure, but he would dig down to the gravel layer for 4-5 days at a time. Idk if that info is of any use. Are there any disadvantages to using a intrared bulb full time?

[Lija]

Are there any disadvantages to using a intrared bulb full time?

no, that is what I'm using, plugged in hydrotherms, for almost all my tanks and just regular low voltage energy saving lamp for day light

if you want to use gravel as drainage you need to separate it from top layer. the frog can damage himself digging through bigger gravel, but in general with the amount of waste they produce you need to change substrate once a month anyway, so drainage layer is more work for you.

[GrifTheGreat]

I forgot to mention:

Water should be changed at the very least every other day, preferably every day. Stagnant water will also cause problems. Again, as mentioned, the substrate should be changed once a month.

Does the frog general burrow down or does he stay on top of the substrate?

[clydefrogmom]

1. Size of enclosure
10 gal
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
just Clyde the Pac Man frog
3. Humidity
right now it says 70 (after a ton of spraying)
4. Temperature
80
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
water from my filtered fridge, then left out and treated with that drop stuff. I don't even use tap water for cooking...only for cleaning.
6. Materials used for substrate
coco-fiber
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
one fake plant, large rock/pool in one thing.

8. Main food source
currently the medicial critical care food by syringe. I tried dusted crickets and calcium worms and even wax worms

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
none before since he is not eating. a dropper thing of calcium from the vet. its like .01 ml/day

10. Lighting
light from the room in the day. red bulb for heat (this is the change from the day light we tried before...a few different ones didn't help)

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
foil on the top of the tank lid 3/4 of it is covered and red colored heat bulb

12. When is the last time he/she ate
a few hours ago bu syringe.

13. Have you found poop lately
not sure what it would look like. so I have no idea

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine) (on my other thread)

15. How old is the frog
not totally sure...a few months?
16. How long have you owned him/her 4 weeks
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
captive bred

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
currently the critical care but I have crickets and waxworms for him

19. How often the frog is handled
right now a few times a day to eat...he won't take it without being picked up... prior to the syringe feeding we only moved him when I cleaned the cage once


20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
low traffic...a bedroom that's only used sometimes for lego play, sleeping.etc (its my son's room)

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)
water changed every other day. it's been completely cleaned a couple days ago after the vet visit. misted a few times a day.

[Sheldon92024]

H
I am having trouble with my Male Green Albino Pac Man. I clean his enclosure monthly and his water whenever he has hopped in it (very obvious since he is on Eco Earth). I spot clean daily. Nothing has changed except...I cleaned his cage (12x12x12) about 5 days ago. I did remove one live plant and replaced it with a log hide. There are still two live plant in there that have been with him since I brought him home. There is an appropriate water dish(yes it's pink, but that's what I had on hand and he doesn't mind) and now a log hide stuffed with moss. When I put him back into the enclosure he freaked out. Hopping into the glass over and over over. Not opening his mouth and trying to bite anything but seriously trying to bust out of the cage. When that didn't work, he tried to climb the walls to get out the top of the enclosure. This went on for two nights non stop. I thought he was gonna give himself a concussion. I have a female green pac man who is celebrating her one year birthday this month. When she was his age and was angry at me she would just burrow for about a week. I'd leave her alone and she'd emerge ready to eat and explore. I also upgraded her from a 12x12x12 cube to a 20 gallon long when she was about his size. So, I thought maybe it's just time to upgrade and he will settle down. I moved him into a 18Wx18Dx12H on day three. See picture. He burrowed between the water dish and the log, in the moss. He explored the first few hours, then burrowed and started CHIRP, CHIRP, CHIRPING! Louder than I have ever heard before. Several different times a night for two nights so far. So incessant my female who usually hangs out beneath a tree or in her hide fully visible, has completely burrowed. I expect him to stay burrowed until he feels safe in his new environment, but if he is chirping so much does that mean anything? I've never had a male before so all this noise is new to me. He has never seen my female, although they were housed next to each other before he was put in the new enclosure. She has never made a peep, so I don't know how he would even know she was close by. What the heck is he trying to tell me? How can I make him more comfy?
1. Size of enclosure: 18Wx18Dx12H
2. # of inhabitants - just the one green albino pac man
3. Humidity: 70-80%
4. Temperature: 75-83 F
5. Water - type - soaking dish is Spring Water, spraying is purified drinking water
6. Materials used for substrate: 6 in deep Eco Earth
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial) two live plants, one medium water dish, one medium log hide, spag. moss
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. about the same, no moss and no hide, but he was acting up before being put into new enclosure
8. Main food source: Nighcrawlers
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) Every feeding. I prepare every other night, but he hasn't been eating so much the past two weeks.
10. Lighting: UVB 5.0
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure: UTH
12. When is the last time he/she ate: Two days ago, he ate 2 nightcrawlers, basically because he was so annoyed I hit him on the mouth with them. I offered othes in front of him and he didn't care.
13. Have you found poop lately: Yep, he pooped the first night in the new enclosure, water bowl
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog: We brought him home Oct. 2012 as a baby so I'm estimating he is 6 months old
16. How long have you owned him/her: 5 months
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred: CB
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats: 2 Pinky mice once a month
19. How often the frog is handled: once a month during enclosure cleaning
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area: medium
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc: Water changes are whenever the water is dirty (very obvious because of Eco Earth and he usually poops in water) Substrate and enclosure changes are monthly

Thanks for your help, it is much appreciated. I'm thinking he should just be left alone until he's comfy, but with all this strong chirping, I'm worried he's trying to tell me something I'm not understanding. :/

[maltese1996]

1. 35x30x30 cm
2. albino pacman
3. Moist substrate
4. 24 degress
5. Water - tap water
6. jungle bedding (lucky reptile)
7. Plastic vines
left them in hot water for 10 minutes
8. crickets
9. calcium twice a week
10. getting a heatmat in 3 days
11. room temperature
12. got mine yesterday and i think he ate a cricket today
13. no
14.
15. dont know exactly
16. 2 days
17. captive
18. crickets
19. rarely
20. medium
21.change the pond water every day and look for uneaten crickets and haven't changed the substrate yet

[GrifTheGreat]

1. 35x30x30 cm
2. albino pacman
3. Moist substrate
4. 24 degress
5. Water - tap water
6. jungle bedding (lucky reptile)
7. Plastic vines
left them in hot water for 10 minutes
8. crickets
9. calcium twice a week
10. getting a heatmat in 3 days
11. room temperature
12. got mine yesterday and i think he ate a cricket today
13. no
14.
15. dont know exactly
16. 2 days
17. captive
18. crickets
19. rarely
20. medium
21.change the pond water every day and look for uneaten crickets and haven't changed the substrate yet

Everything seems fine except the water. If it is not dechlorinated it will causebthe frog to Tox Out. Toxing Out Syndrome is essentially a disease caused by toxins or chemical being absorbed by the frog through the skin poisoning the frog. Also you must be sure the water is shallow. No deeper than up to the frog's chin and the dish must be easy for the frog to get in and out of. These frogs are terrestrial and are not good swimmers.

Get him a little warmer too. Around 27° during the day and it can drop a couple degrees at night. Humidity needs to be between 75% and 80%.

[maltese1996]

can i use water that we drink the one in the bottle ?
and i found this heatmat Exo-Terra Malta is 20x20 cm good for my 35x30x30 and how long should i leave it on for ?

thank you again

[GrifTheGreat]

can i use water that we drink the one in the bottle ?
and i found this heatmat Exo-Terra Malta is 20x20 cm good for my 35x30x30 and how long should i leave it on for ?

thank you again

You can use the 20x20 and leave it on constantly.

You can only use bottled water if it is natural spring water. Filtered bottled water must be treated with a water dechlorinating agent like Prime or ReptaSafe and the same goes for tap water. This must also be used to treat any water you use for the frog including moistening the substrate, misting, and water dish.

[maltese1996]

and another thing he is sleeping a lot lately the first 3 days he ate a cricket a day he is now sleeping a lot with s/he's eyes closed he didn't even borrow ....the humidty is up 70 what might be the problem ?

[GrifTheGreat]

and another thing he is sleeping a lot lately the first 3 days he ate a cricket a day he is now sleeping a lot with s/he's eyes closed he didn't even borrow ....the humidty is up 70 what might be the problem ?

Raise the humidity to 80%. Also raise his temp up to 28°.

[paul3col]

My Pacman could be in trouble!
I have only had Norman for 2 days and I think he might be in trouble. First day I got him home he ate 2 crickets and settled down in his moss. 2nd day he ate another cricket but decided to swallow some orchid bark at the same time. It was a fair sized chunk so today I removed him, cut the moss into small pieces and replaced the orchid bark with coconut fibre. I put him back in his home gave him a cricket and waxworm but he's ignoring them and has totally buried himself in moss. I will be gutted if I lose him so soon, he's a green horned.
10 gallon tank
80 degrees
80-85% humidity
trimmed live moss.
orchid bark now replaced with coconut fibre.
misting and water bowl/ spring water.
dusted crix and the occasional waxworm.
artificial plants.
3d back wall.

[Lija]

replied in your other thread