Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

[KimW]

So after I posted the above opinion, I felt bad about having done so without actual numbers to substantiate my statement. So I crunched some numbers to provide an example and let people decide themselves if its "outrageous" or "taking advantage".

Baytril as an example: a 1oz (30ml) bottle of Baytril solution at 1mg/ml (the dose/dilution I used successfully to treat my adult WTF who was suffering from a bacterial infection (green spots)

A 20 ml bottle of 22mg/ml Baytril runs about $42.00 so this is about 8 cents worth to make the above.
Distilled water is less than 2 cents per ounce.
The most expensive 30 ml plastic med dispensing bottle I could find went for 1.65 per unit. (some are as cheap as 10 cents)
An EXPERIENCED vet tech makes anywhere from 10-15 dollars an hour. Lets go with 12 dollars and hour for this estimate: Lets pay the tech for 5 minutes to package said perscription and print a label for it. That would be about $1.00.
So total cost to Dr. Frye for 1oz of Bayril solution he sends you: $2.75. I believe I saw the price as $24.00 + shipping? I apologize if I have his cost wrong as I did not verify it.

[Bolisnide]

So after I posted the above opinion, I felt bad about having done so without actual numbers to substantiate my statement. So I crunched some numbers to provide an example and let people decide themselves if its "outrageous" or "taking advantage".

Baytril as an example: a 1oz (30ml) bottle of Baytril solution at 1mg/ml (the dose/dilution I used successfully to treat my adult WTF who was suffering from a bacterial infection (green spots)

A 20 ml bottle of 22mg/ml Baytril runs about $42.00 so this is about 8 cents worth to make the above.
Distilled water is less than 2 cents per ounce.
The most expensive 30 ml plastic med dispensing bottle I could find went for 1.65 per unit. (some are as cheap as 10 cents)
An EXPERIENCED vet tech makes anywhere from 10-15 dollars an hour. Lets go with 12 dollars and hour for this estimate: Lets pay the tech for 5 minutes to package said perscription and print a label for it. That would be about $1.00.
So total cost to Dr. Frye for 1oz of Bayril solution he sends you: $2.75. I believe I saw the price as $24.00 + shipping? I apologize if I have his cost wrong as I did not verify it.

Hi Kim, you do have some very valid points. I agree, he is certainly making a large profit on the meds.
I would like to say some things in his defense, as well as from the perspective of a 'business owner' and professional.
When one goes with a professional, an expert, one is going to pay for that expertise. I fully trust that Dr. Frye will provide the correct medication at the correct dose. That is invaluable to me.
He is also not charging for his consultation time in responding to an email when a question arises, nor is he charging for his time in assessing the issue at hand.
He only charges $18 for assessing a fecal, and professionally and expertly knows exactly what to do.
He needs to pay his staff a fair wage, and all his other overhead (rent, utilities, etc.)
He is making his money on the meds he sells, at the right dose. That is OK by me. He certainly needs to make a living.
As with most professionals, in whatever field, you are paying for their knowledge....

[KimW]

I totally get that he is building the cost of his consult into his meds. If you were to go to his practice, or to any vet, you pay at least a $50 consult fee. He takes the time to read and answer questions and look at pics. I'm just not sure this qualifies as examining an animal. Yes, he deserves to be compensated for his time. I'm just not sure what is "fair" as he HASN'T seen these animals in person. Just for arguments sake - He has essentially no "overhead" for his internet business. I as a registered vet tech, I can look at a fecal (float or direct smear) of a dog, cat, bird ...ect. and "expertly" know what meds to use. In every practice I have worked for, the techs read the fecals, Its VERY rare that the Dr. EVER looks at a fecal. So again, less than 5 min of a techs time - about a dollar. Profit - $17.
IDK, its hard. I certainly don't want to suggest his professional opinion isn't valuable, or that this service isn't valuable, but I still feel he is making an easy profit and perhaps overcharging to a group of clients that don't have much other recourse.

[Bolisnide]

I totally get that he is building the cost of his consult into his meds. If you were to go to his practice, or to any vet, you pay at least a $50 consult fee. He takes the time to read and answer questions and look at pics. I'm just not sure this qualifies as examining an animal. Yes, he deserves to be compensated for his time. I'm just not sure what is "fair" as he HASN'T seen these animals in person. Just for arguments sake - He has essentially no "overhead" for his internet business. I as a registered vet tech, I can look at a fecal (float or direct smear) of a dog, cat, bird ...ect. and "expertly" know what meds to use. In every practice I have worked for, the techs read the fecals, Its VERY rare that the Dr. EVER looks at a fecal. So again, less than 5 min of a techs time - about a dollar. Profit - $17.
I dont know, its hard. I certainly don't want to suggest his professional opinion isn't valuable, or that this service isn't valuable, but I still feel he is making an easy profit and perhaps overcharging to a group of clients that don't have much other recourse.

Okay, I do get where you're coming from here....
but, for arguments sake , he does have overhead....
He has a real business in which he has to sustain. He provides the facility in which to perform the fecal test (even if by the tech), and he provides the materials needed in which to perform such test.
If his staff is on payroll (and by no doubt they are), he not only pays for the wage, but also matches 7.65% on FICA (6.2% Social security tax, 1.45% medicare tax) on every dollar he pays his staff. He also pays state unemployment tax, worker's comp insurance, and federal unemployment on all wages.
He also probably has a bookkeeper that he pays about $25-$35 per hour to prepare and submit those payroll tax returns quarterly.
His profit is NOT as high as you think.

Also, you yourself had asked him for advice on Baytril dosage, and you say he didn't reply because you weren't buying the meds from him... Well, even with all of your knowledge, you could not determine the correct dose for your frog, but rather had to wing it?
Someone with NO knowledge and no access to meds at all, is certainly benefiting from paying for Dr. Frye's expert advice.

I do agree that a vet visit in person is ideal, but many do not have that ability to, and Dr. Frye has provided a wonderful service to those of us in the hobby that do not have a knowledgeable herp vet in their area.

Oh, and he has to pay a merchant credit card fee when we pay via credit card or PayPal, these fees are usually about 3%, and do not include the monthly fee in order to process credit cards of usually about $19.95 additional.

[Lija]

Kim, I'm a vet ( not practicing) and my other half is practicing vet, and he is testing every single sample, because as a vet you are ultimately responsible for testing and prescribed meds, I'm pretty sure that is how all vet practices should operate. and if you're wrong you're going to be in trouble not your tech.
it is a bit weird to hear from you the things you're saying given that you're a vet tech. you should know how med cost is calculated when sold to the patients or how the vet procedures cost is calculated, and how much of an actual profit is left, it is more complicated then a-b=profit. if you have the ability to get meds cheaper through your workplace- go for it.
having said that - even though i would never use Dr Frye services for obvious reasons, i respect what he is doing for frog loving community.

and a question - how come you as a vet tech don't know( or can't find out yourself) baytril dosage for a frog? I bet he was as surprised as me now

[flybyferns]

Hello KimW, Lija and Bolisnide

This is Lynn the moderator speaking
This is always a great topic for good discussion.We need to think before we speak, listen carefully to what others have to say, and support thoughts other people have, even if they are different from ours. It's ok to say what you truly believe.

This is Lynn the frog keeper talking :
I believe it's all abut being prepared. A vet ( like any doctor) is the person responsible for prescribing a medication. Dr Frye is the one confident enough to do this via email- Thanks goodness ! He is the one who takes the time to answer a zillion emails , not only here but on other frog/dart forums as well.

Funny--- I spent the day just today ( ready to upload tomorrow w/ more than 20 photos) information for a new thread with instructions for members on how to put together all the necessary supplies for an emergency. I look forward to sharing it !

Personally, I respect Dr Frye, I have used his services ( more than once) , he has helped me save a dying frog that did not eat for 7 weeks. If I have to pay $113.00 about once per year to keep emergency medications on hand....so be it. It's a lot better than yanking my tree frog(s) out of there enclosure(s) , travailing to a herp vet that is 45 min away, and exposing them to the stress of being handled, etc. ie My 4 black eyed tree frog I purchased in May of 2012 have not been handled since the day they were moved from quarantine. I have red eyed tree frogs that have not been touch , by my gloved hand , for over 1 - 1/2 years.

As mentioned--- any vet is responsible for the medications they prescribe. I'm grateful to be able to take advantage of his services. I have 9 tree frogs ! One bad bug in my enclosures -----I'm doomed
Yikes ! I'd rather be safe than sorry

Look forward to sharing my new thread tomorrow!

Lynn

[Bolisnide]

Lynn,
I absolutely did not intend to dis-regard anyone's thoughts. My thing is Kim's inaccurate assumption of profit margin. There really is a lot that goes into operating a veterinarian business, and I did not want Dr. Frye to be left looking like a profit monging vet. He's not, and he's actually very helpful. And I believe he charges a fair rate for meds and services rendered.
I'm sorry Kim, and Lynn...
I do love a good discussion, and unfortunately the written word is often misconstrued.

[flybyferns]

Lynn,
I absolutely did not intend to dis-regard anyone's thoughts. My thing is Kim's inaccurate assumption of profit margin. There really is a lot that goes into operating a veterinarian business, and I did not want Dr. Frye to be left looking like a profit monging vet. He's not, and he's actually very helpful. And I believe he charges a fair rate for meds and services rendered.
I'm sorry Kim, and Lynn...
I do love a good discussion, and unfortunately the written word is often misconstrued.

Bolisnide,
I agree with you , and........... do not think that you disregarded anyone's thoughts.
Lynn

[Mentat]

This thread is around a year old; but because it's referenced a lot, decided to add my 2 grains of salt. In reference to frog care, most members here are willing to go to the extremes to save our frogs. That includes (and is documented in forum threads) driving long distances to see a veterinarian and spending many times the cost of replacing that frog. To us our frog is no different a pet than a dog or a cat. I've been lucky so far with mine (knock on wood); but have spend more than 10X the cost of a fish to save his silly butt .

We should refrain from judging other's action; because by limiting others we are asking to be limited ourselves. Always try to recommend visiting a veterinary during emergencies when available; but when not... then what? It's about choices, risk management, and the wallet ($$$)! Dr. Frye is an option that has saved many a frog in here. As a matter of fact, I wish there were more Dr. Frye's in USA and the rest of the world !

No one here is being forced to do anything! You want to let your sick frog die? That is your choice! Travel 300 miles to a vet? Your choice too! Spend $300 to save a $30 frog? Guess what... your choice !

Protect your choice to decide what is good for you, the family, and your pets. Read, learn, educate yourself so no one can take the freedom to decide for yourself! Just saying !

[KP]

Excellent.