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Thread: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

  1. #21
    KimW
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    I totally get that he is building the cost of his consult into his meds. If you were to go to his practice, or to any vet, you pay at least a $50 consult fee. He takes the time to read and answer questions and look at pics. I'm just not sure this qualifies as examining an animal. Yes, he deserves to be compensated for his time. I'm just not sure what is "fair" as he HASN'T seen these animals in person. Just for arguments sake - He has essentially no "overhead" for his internet business. I as a registered vet tech, I can look at a fecal (float or direct smear) of a dog, cat, bird ...ect. and "expertly" know what meds to use. In every practice I have worked for, the techs read the fecals, Its VERY rare that the Dr. EVER looks at a fecal. So again, less than 5 min of a techs time - about a dollar. Profit - $17.
    IDK, its hard. I certainly don't want to suggest his professional opinion isn't valuable, or that this service isn't valuable, but I still feel he is making an easy profit and perhaps overcharging to a group of clients that don't have much other recourse.

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  3. #22
    100+ Post Member Bolisnide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Quote Originally Posted by KimW View Post
    I totally get that he is building the cost of his consult into his meds. If you were to go to his practice, or to any vet, you pay at least a $50 consult fee. He takes the time to read and answer questions and look at pics. I'm just not sure this qualifies as examining an animal. Yes, he deserves to be compensated for his time. I'm just not sure what is "fair" as he HASN'T seen these animals in person. Just for arguments sake - He has essentially no "overhead" for his internet business. I as a registered vet tech, I can look at a fecal (float or direct smear) of a dog, cat, bird ...ect. and "expertly" know what meds to use. In every practice I have worked for, the techs read the fecals, Its VERY rare that the Dr. EVER looks at a fecal. So again, less than 5 min of a techs time - about a dollar. Profit - $17.
    I dont know, its hard. I certainly don't want to suggest his professional opinion isn't valuable, or that this service isn't valuable, but I still feel he is making an easy profit and perhaps overcharging to a group of clients that don't have much other recourse.
    Okay, I do get where you're coming from here....
    but, for arguments sake , he does have overhead....
    He has a real business in which he has to sustain. He provides the facility in which to perform the fecal test (even if by the tech), and he provides the materials needed in which to perform such test.
    If his staff is on payroll (and by no doubt they are), he not only pays for the wage, but also matches 7.65% on FICA (6.2% Social security tax, 1.45% medicare tax) on every dollar he pays his staff. He also pays state unemployment tax, worker's comp insurance, and federal unemployment on all wages.
    He also probably has a bookkeeper that he pays about $25-$35 per hour to prepare and submit those payroll tax returns quarterly.
    His profit is NOT as high as you think.

    Also, you yourself had asked him for advice on Baytril dosage, and you say he didn't reply because you weren't buying the meds from him... Well, even with all of your knowledge, you could not determine the correct dose for your frog, but rather had to wing it?
    Someone with NO knowledge and no access to meds at all, is certainly benefiting from paying for Dr. Frye's expert advice.

    I do agree that a vet visit in person is ideal, but many do not have that ability to, and Dr. Frye has provided a wonderful service to those of us in the hobby that do not have a knowledgeable herp vet in their area.

    Oh, and he has to pay a merchant credit card fee when we pay via credit card or PayPal, these fees are usually about 3%, and do not include the monthly fee in order to process credit cards of usually about $19.95 additional.
    Last edited by Bolisnide; February 17th, 2013 at 03:11 PM. Reason: thought of something else
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  4. #23
    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Kim, I'm a vet ( not practicing) and my other half is practicing vet, and he is testing every single sample, because as a vet you are ultimately responsible for testing and prescribed meds, I'm pretty sure that is how all vet practices should operate. and if you're wrong you're going to be in trouble not your tech.
    it is a bit weird to hear from you the things you're saying given that you're a vet tech. you should know how med cost is calculated when sold to the patients or how the vet procedures cost is calculated, and how much of an actual profit is left, it is more complicated then a-b=profit. if you have the ability to get meds cheaper through your workplace- go for it.
    having said that - even though i would never use Dr Frye services for obvious reasons, i respect what he is doing for frog loving community.

    and a question - how come you as a vet tech don't know( or can't find out yourself) baytril dosage for a frog? I bet he was as surprised as me now
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

  5. #24
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Hello KimW, Lija and Bolisnide

    This is Lynn the moderator speaking
    This is always a great topic for good discussion.We need to think before we speak, listen carefully to what others have to say, and support thoughts other people have, even if they are different from ours. It's ok to say what you truly believe.

    This is Lynn the frog keeper talking :
    I believe it's all abut being prepared. A vet ( like any doctor) is the person responsible for prescribing a medication. Dr Frye is the one confident enough to do this via email- Thanks goodness ! He is the one who takes the time to answer a zillion emails , not only here but on other frog/dart forums as well.

    Funny--- I spent the day just today ( ready to upload tomorrow w/ more than 20 photos) information for a new thread with instructions for members on how to put together all the necessary supplies for an emergency. I look forward to sharing it !

    Personally, I respect Dr Frye, I have used his services ( more than once) , he has helped me save a dying frog that did not eat for 7 weeks. If I have to pay $113.00 about once per year to keep emergency medications on hand....so be it. It's a lot better than yanking my tree frog(s) out of there enclosure(s) , travailing to a herp vet that is 45 min away, and exposing them to the stress of being handled, etc. ie My 4 black eyed tree frog I purchased in May of 2012 have not been handled since the day they were moved from quarantine. I have red eyed tree frogs that have not been touch , by my gloved hand , for over 1 - 1/2 years.

    As mentioned--- any vet is responsible for the medications they prescribe. I'm grateful to be able to take advantage of his services. I have 9 tree frogs ! One bad bug in my enclosures -----I'm doomed
    Yikes ! I'd rather be safe than sorry

    Look forward to sharing my new thread tomorrow!

    Lynn
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

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  6. #25
    100+ Post Member Bolisnide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Lynn,
    I absolutely did not intend to dis-regard anyone's thoughts. My thing is Kim's inaccurate assumption of profit margin. There really is a lot that goes into operating a veterinarian business, and I did not want Dr. Frye to be left looking like a profit monging vet. He's not, and he's actually very helpful. And I believe he charges a fair rate for meds and services rendered.
    I'm sorry Kim, and Lynn...
    I do love a good discussion, and unfortunately the written word is often misconstrued.
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  7. #26
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolisnide View Post
    Lynn,
    I absolutely did not intend to dis-regard anyone's thoughts. My thing is Kim's inaccurate assumption of profit margin. There really is a lot that goes into operating a veterinarian business, and I did not want Dr. Frye to be left looking like a profit monging vet. He's not, and he's actually very helpful. And I believe he charges a fair rate for meds and services rendered.
    I'm sorry Kim, and Lynn...
    I do love a good discussion, and unfortunately the written word is often misconstrued.
    Bolisnide,
    I agree with you , and........... do not think that you disregarded anyone's thoughts.
    Lynn
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
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  8. #27
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Hi friends,

    I just got home from work and decided to pop in. This was the first post I saw.

    As most of us here on this particular thread have some sort of educational and/or medical background it's will be easier to discuss... I think we are all at least somewhat analytical people. I can see where each avenue comes from. I don't think anyone is incorrect, it is just being seen through different angles. So, I feel kinda left out , and thought I'd join in .

    I, myself, am thankful to have access to a herp vet via this type of access. The 'apparent' herp vet here nearly killed and was negligent to the frogs that a local store send to her when they became ill. They were dehydrated, starving and had bacterial and fungal infections. The frogs were sent to her for 2 days for diagnosis and treatment. When I followed up to see how they were doing, my friend at the pet store said they still weren't eating and she wasn't sure which meds to treat with. She returned the frogs to the pet store untreated, not rehydrated with soaks, not manually fed...nothing. That is when I adopted them and called Dr. Frye. He helped me save them. I feel I payed for his services as well.

    We all know medication prices are inflated. When I had my daughter I paid $200+ for one time doses of Advil and a quick lido injection before a few stitches. We pay for the service delivery. I think his way of pricing is acceptable to the buyer if the buyer agrees on the price. It is our job to research and compare costs between providers.

    When I adopted Twiggy, my first retf rescue, he was full of infected scratches from being housed with lizards. I took him to a vet. It cost me $182 for her to to do skin cultures, and to provide me with a couple sterile saline syringes. Her answer to his treatment plan was to irrigate him daily with the NS syringe. That was it. I was not a happy camper. When I asked her if I should treat him with neosporin she said no. So, I ignored her instructions, went home and boiled dechlorinated water, sterilized a hospital tank, diluted the NS to 50% less with the boiled water, irrigated him with the cooled dilute NS mix, followed be a cooled boiled dechlorinated water irrigation, applied neosporin daily for 4 or 6 weeks I think it was, gently force fed him, cleansed the hosp tank with pre-prepared cooled boiled dechlorinated water daily, and also changed the water daily as such. He healed up. This was before the incident listed above. Money wasted.

    I guess what I'm wanting to say is we are paying for the education, time consumed and then shared in terms of teaching, and then delivery of the care items. Is his care overpriced? Isn't all health and vet care? I wish we did have cheaper access to the meds we need.

    Honestly, as a nurse, all I need is the infectious source and agent, the proper drug, and a proper dosing scale and I could do it myself. It's no different in terms of animals to humans except some of the drugs used and the Rx doses are tinier, so to speak. With culture results with sensitivities, we could all do it if we had a dosing guideline. Unfortunately most of don't, nor do we have direct access to the medications.

    I talk to our infectious disease physicians at work quite often about my frogs. They love to talk about them. We discuss things like human diseases caused by bacterial flora most found on amphibians and common protozoan infections. Interestingly enough, some of the most commonly prescribed antibiotics used to treat human bowel disorders and infections can be used or are derivatives of the antibiotics to treat common frog infections. I could write a whole book about it, but that's for another time. Now, if only they could prescribe the meds for me .

    But, too, we have to remember that most customers are frog owners without a medical background. They are paying for the education that goes along with the medications, ailment of the frog, etc. Healthcare is overpriced no matter which way we look at it.

    The best vet care would certainly be a well educated and experienced herp vet that is local so any sick frogs can have an actual exam. That I agree with for sure. I feel Dr. Frye provides us with a service for those that do not have that privilege. I may be partial because he has helped me save 6 frogs up to this point, but I am thankful.

    Sorry to blab on and on...I tend to enjoy writing. And, of course, I also know that this is only my opinion.

    Feel free to comment.
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  9. #28
    KimW
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Lots of opinions. Too much to really go into but just a few last words and I'll let it rest. As far as my inaccurate assuption of profit margin. I was speaking only of the internet aspect of his business when I said "essentially" no overhead. Yes, his regular practice has all those expenses, however, for the internet clients, most of those expenses would not apply. With the exception of the fecal aspect, (it did not seem like he performed a fecal for every client), and the person who actually ships out the meds, the bulk of the business would seem to be comprised of: reading the emails, looking at the pics, answering questions, perscribing meds. None of these things would incur the costs you listed. Look, I know most vets are not in it for the money, and most are not getting rich. As far as "winging" the dose of Baytril and "all my knowledge". I have worked primarily in small animal specialist referal and critical care. I have no herp exp nor do the vets I work with. I did look up the meds and dose. Which leads me to Lija.
    All of the things you said about profit in a regular practice are true, I just don't think they are as applicable in this particular circumstance of an practice that is conducted via internet. I am surprised that you are surprised that I didn't know the Baytril dose for a frog. None of the referal vets I work with knew it either. We don't see herps. We do hip replacements, cardiology, internal medicine, critical care...etc for small animals. When you say your husband "is testing every single sample" do you mean that he is reading every fecal, urinalysis, HW test, ....etc himself? Wow Thats awesome. I guess this is possible in a small 1 or 2 Dr. practice? I have never worked in one like that. I can tell you in large practices, that simply does not happen.
    So in the end Dr. Frye is providing a much needed service and I that is what matters most, I guess

  10. #29
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    It's a tough answer either way. Is there really even an answer?

    My conclusion is that all health care and medications is overpriced.

    Your best bet as a pet owner is to do your research, know who has experience with that particular species of pet, and know your options. Knowing who could treat your pet if an emergency were to arise also helps. It may also decrease costs, especially if your only option is an emergency vet hospital. There's nothing wrong with a little comparison shopping .
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  11. #30
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Hi Guys,
    I'm excited to see such great conversation. All members will benefit from this in the end.

    One thing that comes to mind this AM is: It's difficult enough to 'help' a member after the purchase of a frog .
    I am emphasizing after ! We can easily see all too often, the purchase comes 1st , then the learning as to how to take care of it comes 2nd. To compound the problem- they may leave a pet supplier - with the wrong information. So my point is , there is a tremendous need for the easy access to medical information/ and medication.

    I look a this from the educational point of view, as well . One may pay only 5.99 for a frog! Only 5.99 - cheap - right ! Having not even planned on the purchase which takes place impulsively. They like frogs ; all is not lost. Taking care of it when it's ill ( or going to the vet ) sadly, may never happen. In my post to members with a "sick" frog ( often as the result of poor care , wrong information etc. ) ; I quickly include a link to contact information for Dr Frye!

    The frog ( and hopefully the member ) CAN be saved.

    One day not too long ago - I was so exhausted after answering the same questions in the tree frog area --- like my good friend Heath ( love_heart) I blabbed too :
    http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...y-2-cents.html

    Talk to you soon
    Lynn
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
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  12. #31
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Lynn, I love that link!!! Fantastic!!!!

    I think that is how this original post was intended. Prevention and having what you need available in a pinch.

    Of course, Dr.Frye is only one vet in a few hundred. He just happens to provide the service from the phone/Internet.

    I hope everyone will pass through the link in the upper post by Lynn here and read through. It goes beyond medications and teaches more about stress effects on amphibians, which therefore could lead to illness, then requiring the need for such medications.

    Thanks! Heather
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  13. #32
    100+ Post Member Bolisnide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    I would like to call a truce, I'm sorry...
    1.1.0 White's Treefrog
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  14. #33
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    A debate is always a good learning experience. Take in the good, leave behind the negative and no matter which way you read through, it becomes a win-win for all . It brought up some good topics.
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  15. #34
    KimW
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Same.

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    100+ Post Member Sarosaurus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Hey guys! I have a question on the Metronidizole. I have come across a powdered form at the pet store that I work at in the fish section. It's made by SeaChem. Anyone know what the difference is and if it could be used on amphibians? I looked at the label and didn't see where it wasn't safe to use on them, but maybe one of you could give me some insight into this. I can get it for roughly $10 and would be readily available should I need it.

    Also, what would you guys say about using Vetericyn One-step wound and skin care that works naturally with your animal's immune system on amphibians? I have used it on myself and my kitties before and it works awesome. Just wonder if you guys think it could take the place of SSD when my frog decides to keep rubbing his nose on the glass? This stuff pretty much takes care of any of the nasties he could get from any wounds he sustains (fungal, bacterial, etc..)

  17. #36
    100+ Post Member tinkgirl77's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    This is such a good thread.

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  18. #37
    Moderator Mentat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    This thread is around a year old; but because it's referenced a lot, decided to add my 2 grains of salt. In reference to frog care, most members here are willing to go to the extremes to save our frogs. That includes (and is documented in forum threads) driving long distances to see a veterinarian and spending many times the cost of replacing that frog. To us our frog is no different a pet than a dog or a cat. I've been lucky so far with mine (knock on wood); but have spend more than 10X the cost of a fish to save his silly butt .

    We should refrain from judging other's action; because by limiting others we are asking to be limited ourselves. Always try to recommend visiting a veterinary during emergencies when available; but when not... then what? It's about choices, risk management, and the wallet ($$$)! Dr. Frye is an option that has saved many a frog in here. As a matter of fact, I wish there were more Dr. Frye's in USA and the rest of the world !

    No one here is being forced to do anything! You want to let your sick frog die? That is your choice! Travel 300 miles to a vet? Your choice too! Spend $300 to save a $30 frog? Guess what... your choice !

    Protect your choice to decide what is good for you, the family, and your pets. Read, learn, educate yourself so no one can take the freedom to decide for yourself! Just saying !
    Remember to take care of the enclosure and it will take care of your frog !​

  19. #38
    Tubby0512
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    But if you poison your frog with the pain killer Neosporin that's cruel. So have him suffer from being poisoned. If I had to put down a frog i'll go with a shot. Its faster and he won't suffer from being poisoned.

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    Moderator Mentat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarosaurus View Post
    Hey guys! I have a question on the Metronidizole. I have come across a powdered form at the pet store that I work at in the fish section. It's made by SeaChem. Anyone know what the difference is and if it could be used on amphibians? I looked at the label and didn't see where it wasn't safe to use on them, but maybe one of you could give me some insight into this. I can get it for roughly $10 and would be readily available should I need it.

    Also, what would you guys say about using
    Vetericyn One-step wound and skin care that works naturally with your animal's immune system on amphibians? I have used it on myself and my kitties before and it works awesome. Just wonder if you guys think it could take the place of SSD when my frog decides to keep rubbing his nose on the glass? This stuff pretty much takes care of any of the nasties he could get from any wounds he sustains (fungal, bacterial, etc..)
    There are different metronidizole formulas. In the fish trade, the usual form is dimetronidizole, which is more soluble in water (plain metro is not). Even though its popular in treating protozoan and bacterial infections; metro is a drug that can and has caused damage to fish when users overdose or do an incorrect (usually too long) treatment. Because of this, recommend getting metro from a vet and use with proper dosing. Do wash hands and don't breath metro in powder form; it's also identified as a carcinogen.

    IRT Vetericyn, have not used it but the website states is safe for exotics. Good luck !
    Remember to take care of the enclosure and it will take care of your frog !​

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    Default Re: Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared

    Quote Originally Posted by DonLisk View Post
    Frog First Aid Medications - Being Prepared



    Metronidizole is an antibacterial, antiprotozoal, and APPETITE STIMULANT. It is $30 per 100 mLs.


    Is this in liquid form? (mLs?) How is it given to the frog and in what dosage?
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


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