White's Dumpy juvenile very bony & likes to burrow???

[busytiredmom4]

I'm a little concerned about a couple things with my White's Dumpy tree frog. When I bought him a couple months ago, they said he was a juvenile. My concern is that (1) he looks like Schmiegel from Lord of the Rings-very bony. He's grown since I bought him, but his lower body is very bony and he's got these 2 bones on top of his back (towards his legs) that stick out. Then towards the vent, it's extremely narrow, almost like he's a triangular shape. The pet store guy said he's most likely bony because he's a baby and doesn't have much fat on him yet. He suggested feeding mealworms to increase his fat intake, all while keeping in mind the chitin that can cause bowel problems.

My 2nd concern is that he does not stick to the glass or climb like tree frogs are supposed to. When I bought him at pet store, he was always on the glass, but all he does here is burrow usually completely or he'll just lay in his own corner. I have lots of things for his to climb on, vines, etc. It's not too cold or too hot here but the pet store owner thinks it's just really comfortable on the ground. I admit I do have a lot of substrate in the terrarium (bottom layer of coconut husk and a top layer of sphagum peat moss. I have 2 other tree frogs in same tank and they are always in their little tree. They never burrow. I've never seen this. Even my toads (in another tank) don't really burrow much and they're supposed to by nature.

Dumpy is very friendly, isn't bothered by much, very mellow, eats fine, gets along with other 2 small tree frogs fine. Also, there's times where I don't see him come out for a few days. I read that they have a different kind of skin that controls their body temp so they can burrow for the moisture. I mist lightly once a day and I feed crickets, mealworms, flies, and other random bugs every other day and I make sure to watch them eat so I know each of them are getting their fair share.

Could it be that he's just shy and just prefers the substrate to clinging on the glass?

Should I reconsider the amount of substrate I use?

Should I feed him more often? (He's 3 inches long snout to vent and is a juvenile)

Is my tank too small? I know I need a bigger tank, and I will be upgrading in a couple weeks (started out with tiny Pacific Chorus frog and quickly added 2 more after that) It's a 5.5 gallon glass with Dumpy, a green tree frog and a Pacific chorus frog. The other 2 just hang out all day on the leaves (usually the same leaf) of a plant so in a way, there's still plenty of room for Dumpy.

I've attached pics of him on my lap showing how bony he is. Otherwise, he looks great. Clear eyes, healthy appetite, non-aggresive, no weird skin markings, etc. Please help! I have 3 tree frogs and 4 toads and I've never had a major concern with any of them. Any advice would help. Thanks!

[Froggiefressh]

I do not think it is just one problem causing him to be so skinny and burrowing in the substrate. Mixing species is a huge NO! Each frog has different toxins in their skin and usually comes from different environments. On top of that you are housing three completely different tree frogs in a tiny 5.5 gallon tank. That is frog cruelty to the max. I would not even put one white tree frog in a 5.5g baby or not. Frogs usually show no signs of stress or health complications, However in your cases its clear there is a problem. The frog is way to skinny and burrows in the dirt. My advice to you if you want all your frogs to be healthy AND happy is to house all three in separate tanks. Make sure they're all big enough. White tree frogs need a decent size enclosure I would not get anything smaller then a 20 gallon high. The other tree frogs should be fine in their own 10 gallon. Seeing as you have three different frogs in one tiny enclosure I'm kinda scared to ask what your temperatures are at. White tree frogs and American green tree frogs I know for a fact each need different temperature and humidity levels. For the sake of your frogs here is what you should do:

1. Get each frog their own tank
2. Research and find out what each species temperature and humidity levels should be at(This is just as important as the first one and should have been done before buying the animal)
3. Start feeding your White tree frog heavily(dust the crickets with calcium powder, but not every feeding because he could overdose)Those bones sticking out of his back are his hip bones and should not be that visible.

[Kristen]

Take Gregs advice and separate them all immediately. Put them all into atleast a ten gallon tank each (Get a bigger one for the whites)
How often do you feed him, and what do you feed him?
Do you dust his crickets ?

If you're going to keep frogs you should research them all prior to getting them to avoid things like this happening.

[flybyferns]

Hi Renee

I do not have whites - but I will try to help.
Your Whites has or had MBD ( meteibolic bone disease ) along the way, maybe even as a froglet?
What you see can not be changed , BUT if there is any calcium dificiency it CAN be corrected so that no further damage will occur.
The two points on it's back--- are the upper corners of the sacrum bone. It is shaped in a triangle. Through it runs, a bone call the urostyle.
The urostyle ends at the vent. The little point you see at the vent is the tip of the urostyle.
His dusted crickets are extremely important in an environment that is stress free and there is no competition for food .
Getting some weight on him is important so that those little bony areas do not break the skin. Pick up some wax worms - they are high in fat but not nutritious!
(Just wax worms - the others are too hard to digest) give him a couple a week along w/ a DAILY feeding of crickets. You must calcium dust "Rep-cal" is a good one.
Feed him WELL- daily for now. Dust w/ vitamins and calcium on seperate days. i.e. Calcilum w/ D 3-3X/ week , vits 2x times and 2 days off.
Make dinner easy - the crickets should not be too big.
He should have a thank that is at least 18"- 24" high at some point! For now, what I would do, is put him into a 5 gallon tank ,ALONE.
I would purchase a 2.0 UVB bulb at put it on a timer for 4-5 hours during the day.

Don't worry about him being unable to climb, for now, as it could hurt Keep a simple substrate like clean , dampened paper towels in his hospital tank to monitor food and poop. Handle him VERY ,VERY carefully !!!! dampen your hands. What ever you do ---secure the transport!!!! to be sure he does NOT tank a leap, as he could break a bone if there is any active MBD. Keep a fresh, very clean, shallow soaking dish available at all times. Water should be de-clorinated only (Reptisafe , Aquatize or Amquel).
Keep his tank quite and covered on three sides, if at all possible. Handle him , only, if absolutely necessary ! For now I would not put anything in the hospital tank for him to climb on. * you don't want him to fall* Moving forward----you can monitor his ability to climb on the glass as he progress and gains his strength back.

There is a FF care sheet for Whites !

Hope this helps
Lynn

[busytiredmom4]

Hi Renee

I do not have whites - but I will try to help.
Your Whites has or had MBD ( meteibolic bone disease ) along the way, maybe even as a froglet?
What you see can not be changed , BUT if there is any calcium dificiency it CAN be corrected so that no further damage will occur.
The two points on it's back--- are the upper corners of the sacrum bone. It is shaped in a triangle. Through it runs, a bone call the urostyle.
The urostyle ends at the vent. The little point you see at the vent is the tip of the urostyle.
His dusted crickets are extremely important in an environment that is stress free and there is no competition for food .
Getting some weight on him is important so that those little bony areas do not break the skin. Pick up some wax worms - they are high in fat but not nutritious!
(Just wax worms - the others are too hard to digest) give him a couple a week along w/ a DAILY feeding of crickets. You must calcium dust "Rep-cal" is a good one.
Feed him WELL- daily for now. Dust w/ vitamins and calcium on seperate days. i.e. Calcilum w/ D 3-3X/ week , vits 2x times and 2 days off.
Make dinner easy - the crickets should not be too big.
He should have a thank that is at least 18"- 24" high at some point! For now, what I would do, is put him into a 5 gallon tank ,ALONE.
I would purchase a 2.0 UVB bulb at put it on a timer for 4-5 hours during the day.

Don't worry about him being unable to climb, for now, as it could hurt Keep a simple substrate like clean , dampened paper towels in his hospital tank to monitor food and poop. Handle him VERY ,VERY carefully !!!! dampen your hands. What ever you do ---secure the transport!!!! to be sure he does NOT tank a leap, as he could break a bone if there is any active MBD. Keep a fresh, very clean, shallow soaking dish available at all times. Water should be de-clorinated only (Reptisafe , Aquatize or Amquel).
Keep his tank quite and covered on three sides, if at all possible. Handle him , only, if absolutely necessary ! For now I would not put anything in the hospital tank for him to climb on. * you don't want him to fall* Moving forward----you can monitor his ability to climb on the glass as he progress and gains his strength back.

There is a FF care sheet for Whites !

Hope this helps
Lynn

Lynn,

Thank you SO much for #1-not sounding like I'm a terrible and neglectful pet owner and #2 (most importantly) possibly solving the mystery. For one, I bought Dumpy like this. He looks the same as he did 2 months ago. The pet store where I bought him is a small family owned one who truly care about their animals. When I bought him, I asked them why he's so bony because I did my research before the purchase and the pictures I saw of healthy frogs were far different than the Dumpy. I do know they fed their frogs/toads every other day and keep tight records. Not sure if they include calcium dusting. I use Reptical for every other feeding and I've been feeding him as much as he'll possibly eat (crickets & waxworms) to fatten him up and get some calcium intake. In his terrarium, there's no competition for food because I drop the crickets in right in front of him and watch all my frogs & toads when they eat so I know who's eating and who's not. He has no problem eating

When you mentioned that what I see cannot be changed, what do you mean? Is this MBD the equivalent of human arthritis or osteoporosis? This might explain why he prefers the soft substrate (painful?). If I continue to fatten him up and give calcium supplements, do you think his condition will get better? I'm putting him in another tank by himself tonight and for the past week I've been really monitoring this little guy and he seems to be gaining weight. His hip bones are less noticeable after just a few days, which is great. He appears to be fattening up, although he still likes to burrow. I'm putting a UV light only on him; I think my other frogs will live without it for a little while (getting another one Thurs).

Any other advice you can give and are you pretty certain he has or has had this MBD? Have you had experience with the same problem? Should I take him to a vet if his condition does not improve? I think we have a small pet hospital somewhere close to me.... I am going to do everything on your list to get this little guy better. He's only a baby, per the pet store and I have 3 toads and 2 other tree frogs and have never had any problems with them. Thanks again for your practical and non-judgmental advice. Sometimes people (others) on this and other forums forget that we love and care for our pets too and aren't neglectful if we write in about a problem with a pet. If people were neglectful, would they take the time to post pics of their pets and try to figure out a problem their having? So like I said, thank you for your nonjudgmental reply and help; I'm sure grateful )