Water: Distilled vs purified vs everything else

[John]

Eufa, please don't side track the thread - start your own thread in the tree frog section to ask your unrelated questions.

[abeloneto]

I’m drinking tap water and so do the whole family – our children as well.
It should be okay – so “they” say…
Why shouldn't it be good for fogs then?

[bshmerlie]

Just make sure you are using a water conditioning product like Tetra Aquasafe or Amquel. You can purchase these at all petstores, even Walmart or even most supermarkets in the pet sections. They will decholorinate the tap water and make it safe for fish, frogs or reptiles.

[dkk08]

Hi guys, I hope you folks don't mind me using some of the posts here especially the one by Dr. John Claire on the differences in water, as I'm a Mod a Vivarium section on a Singapore Forum and thought all these information would be extremely useful? Thanks!

[Paul Rust]

Hi guys, I hope you folks don't mind me using some of the posts here especially the one by Dr. John Claire on the differences in water, as I'm a Mod a Vivarium section on a Singapore Forum and thought all these information would be extremely useful? Thanks!

Please send a pm to John and ask him as all posts on this forum are his property. He is extremely helpful and will likely be more than pleased to help you.

[Grunta]

Hi guys, I have access to an unlimited supply of spring water bottles from my work.
The side of the bottle reads the following mg/L
Calcium 0.7
Magnesium 1.4
Sodium 10.0
Chloride 13.0
Potassium 0.9

Would this be suitable for my frogs or would I need to treat it first?

[tadpole]

no one has mentioned filtered water. i use a brita filter to run my tap water through. it says it removes copper mercury cadmium chlorine zinc. i also use rainwater from my roof when available. i am keeping acf's and budgetts in tupperware, and do complete daily water changes, about a quart per container. if i use a substrate, i prefer long fibered sphagnum moss, which can be removed in a clump, sorted through for any apparent feces, then put in a collander and rinsed thoroughly with hot water, or microwaved after rinsing.

[John]

I’m drinking tap water and so do the whole family – our children as well.
It should be okay – so “they” say…
Why shouldn't it be good for fogs then?

What is suitable for you is not necessarily suitable for a frog. In the case of tap water, most untreated tap water will, at the very least, have a deleterious effect on a frog. In the case of tadpoles and aquatic frogs, it will more than likely kill them in short order due to poisoning by the chlorine (and if present, chloramines). Then there are heavy metals and other nasties that need to be taken into account. Human beings are not amphibians, and therefore do not have the same requirements.

Hi guys, I hope you folks don't mind me using some of the posts here especially the one by Dr. John Claire on the differences in water, as I'm a Mod a Vivarium section on a Singapore Forum and thought all these information would be extremely useful? Thanks!

You may use this information if you provide a prominent link to the original information in the translated copy and you state clearly that the information comes from another source. Thank you for asking.

Hi guys, I have access to an unlimited supply of spring water bottles from my work.
The side of the bottle reads the following mg/L
Calcium 0.7
Magnesium 1.4
Sodium 10.0
Chloride 13.0
Potassium 0.9

Would this be suitable for my frogs or would I need to treat it first?

It should be fine for most purposes, but bear in mind that for certain tasks some additional changes must be made to the water - e.g. for raising the tadpoles of terrestrial dart frogs.

no one has mentioned filtered water. i use a brita filter to run my tap water through. it says it removes copper mercury cadmium chlorine zinc. i also use rainwater from my roof when available. i am keeping acf's and budgetts in tupperware, and do complete daily water changes, about a quart per container. if i use a substrate, i prefer long fibered sphagnum moss, which can be removed in a clump, sorted through for any apparent feces, then put in a collander and rinsed thoroughly with hot water, or microwaved after rinsing.

Water filters are designed with humans in mind. They render water very suitable for drinking. However, without an analysis of what's coming out of them (and it really would need to be over a period of time in order to establish their consistency), I would not recommend them. My primary concern is consistency, and carbon-based filters require religious replacement due to the possibility of the carbon releasing much of what it has adsorbed/absorbed after it has become saturated.

Large "home size" carbon filters for municipal water are a safer bet, but again you need to keep up with changing them as they wear out. These filter systems superficially resemble a large reverse osmosis setup.

[tadpole]

[without an analysis of what's coming out of them (and it really would need to be over a period of time in order to establish their consistency), I would not recommend them. My primary concern is consistency, and carbon-based filters require religious replacement due to the possibility of the carbon releasing much of what it has adsorbed/absorbed after it has become saturated]

good point, however, brita is the most trusted home water filter, brita has tested it as you suggested, and i replace religiously it at recommended intervals (there is a timer on the pitcher).i am sure they know what they are talking about with their replacement guidelines, as consumer groups would nail them if otherwise. they don't need any negative publicity, lawsuits, etc.

as to their replacement schedule, i am sure it is very overly cautious for same reasons stated above, but more importantly, they make a recurring fee every time you replace one of their $8 filters. i would wager it could go 10 times longer than the suggested replacement schedule, but don't try it, this is my drinking water. the one thing they don't list as being removed is lead, however our local water utility had a big publicity problem with lead being found in drinking water and supplied all residents with this very filter as the corrective measure.

i used to use one of those carbon blocks hooked directly to the tap and changed a 55 gal gold fish tank with no problems. that filter was rated for an incredible # of gallons of water, and the fish were fine. i believe the worst thing that can happen if replacement schedule is not adhered to is bacterial contamination, as they start to grow in the filter media.

[John]

With all due respect, Brita tests its products for human consumption, not for amphibians running around in it. In all likelihood it is fine for most amphibian purposes. However, I do not use water sources for sensitive amphibians like dart frogs unless I can guarantee consistent water chemistry. That's why I always start from distilled and add chemicals to it myself.

It simply isn't possible to guarantee consistent water quality using a small filtration system like a Brita. I don't speak from an amateur or advanced amateur point of view - I speak as a Ph.D. chemist whose research for almost a decade was concerned with water soluble substances, pollutants, and their removal.

[wesleybrouwer]

Indeed a great layout of the different types of water.

Maybe i read the thread not thoroughly enough.
But what i missed was a warning on this.

NEVER use pure osmose or distilled water on youre frogs for soaking purpose,
since it WILL kill them.
Because of the principal of reversed osmosis,
this water will extract minerals from you're frog to compensate the balance between the water in the frog and in the bowl.

There has been cases where people used purified water in order to soak the frogs for a treatment.
In a matter of minutes they will die because important minerals are extracted out of the animal.
ALWAYS mix it up with ventilated tapwater or rainwater to make the water less aggresive.
Same for people using any kind of automated rainsystems using metal spraying nozzles, the aggresive water will solve parts of the metal and spray this into you're tank.
Therefore, please use purified water with caution!

[daggekko]

Wow! Lots of great information here. I have questions to get more details from everyone.

First, I have always done the method of letting tap water sit out for a day or 2 before using it. I have never seen ill effects on adult or juvenile frogs. I had a breeding group of Clown Tree Frogs for quite a while and the few times I got tadpoles I can say that they never survived a water change with my "aged" water. I have raised Red Eye Tree Frog tadpoles with the aged water and had great success. And yes the water spots are always terrible!

Secondly, I have moved to 3 different cities in the past 4 years and have noticed extreme differences in the tap water. I own a group of aquatic Caecilians and noticed that when I lived in an area with hard water they did terrible. Their skin seemed to get more plastic looking than soft and rubbery like normal. (This is something to look out for depending on your water supply) After noticing the change in health I purchased a R/O unit sold in aquarium shops(maybe Coralife) and this made the difference. I've never experimented with adding minerals back into the water though.

For those who do a lot with dart frogs, what is the ideal pH you've used to maintain and breed with?

As far as using products like R/O Right, do you have any recommendations for the proper mixture?

Reverse osmosis water conditioner for freshwater aquariums*Contains a special mixture of dissolvable solids to condition RO water*Provides desirable trace minerals necessary for healthy aquarium inhabitants

A perfect mix of salts and trace elements to balance RO and deionized water, including calcium, sodium, potassium, and magnesium. Phosphate- and nitrate-free. Use for both soft and hard water. Powder: For soft water - 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. Medium hardness - 2 teaspoons per 10 gallons. Hard water - 3 teaspoons per 10 gallons.
Liquid: 1-5 teaspoons per 5 gallons; depending on the hardness of water.

Here is guidelines I've found for R/O Right, but as far as frogs go, I'm at a loss to decide which way to dose the water.

As for the Holtfreter's Solution, do you use this at 100%?
This is the only formula I've seen listed as 100% Is this correct?
NaCl3.5 gNaHCO30.2 gKCl0.05 gMgSO4 stock solution333 µlCaCl2 stock solution333 µldH201 liter
Check pH; should be between 7 and 7.5.

I know there is probably something else I want to add to this but it is now tomorrow morning and I need to get some sleep before work.

[Rae]

A guide to the various waters:

Distilled Water is water that has been boiled to evaporation (steam) and then condensed back into water. This process is usually carried out a few times (evaporate and condense and then evaporate and condense again). By evaporating the water you leave any impurities (100% of salts, heavy metals, other nasties) behind and what you end up with is 100% H2O. This is the purest water you can acquire. Distilled water is good for misting terrariums because it won't leave a mark on the glass when it evaporates (the marks left on the glass by other waters are caused by dissolved salts, which are not present in distilled water). If you want to use distilled water in aquariums or frog water bowls, etc, you need to replace the lost minerals in it by using a salts mix (such as Holtfreter's - an exact recipe for a mixture of a few mineral salts) or by using a commercial product like R/O-rite or Electro-rite, both intended for Reverse Osmosis water but equally suitable for distilled water.

Reverse Osmosis Water (R/O) is not as pure as distilled water but pretty close - reverse osmosis basically filters out anything dissolved in the water. People buy reverse osmosis systems at aquarium stores so they can make up water with precise water chemistry for applications like salt water aquariums or dart frog enclosures. Distilled water is equally good but obviously it's not as easy to distil your own water on a useful scale. If you plan to use R/O water in an aquarium or a water bowl then make use of a product like R/O-rite or Electro-rite to replace the lost salts necessary for normal water chemistry.

"Purified Water" is usually water that has been filtered by various different methods, or even distilled, and had minerals added for taste (your taste, not for animals). There's not much to recommend using it instead of tap water that has been treated with a water conditioner, because while tap water will have extra things in it, "purified water" will be lacking in normal dissolved salts that animals need. I take a very dim view of "purified water" - think Dasani and other products - because it seems like an excuse to charge a lot of money for a bottle of filtered tap water.

Spring Water - depending on where you live this can mean different things. In Europe there are strict purity standards on what you can and can't call a Spring Water. I'm not sure how it works in the US and elsewhere. Spring water is usually water drawn from an aquifer (natural collection of water in the ground, often mind boggling in volume).

Mineral Water - again I'm not sure if the same standard applies outside of Europe, but mineral water is similar to spring water except that it meets much higher purity standards. True mineral waters are rare in modern times due to all of the pollution in the atmosphere that goes into ground water when there is rain and snow.

Tap Water - what comes out of your tap really depends on where you live in the world and what your local municipality adds to the water. Tap water in most countries is treated to reduce bacterial content (and other nasties), often pH adjusted (making it less acidic usually, though sometimes less alkaline/basic) and various salts are added to it (usually for pH adjustment). Aluminium sulfate is another salt added to water to remove particles, which improves water clarity (who likes drinking brown water?). Chlorine, a caustic gas, is added to water to kill nasties and also remains in the water for a day or two, thus keeping it "safe" until it comes out of your tap. Chlorine in water will kill fish and can kill tadpoles. You can get rid of it by leaving tap water in a bucket for 24-48 hours. However if your municipality also adds ammonia to the water, the ammonia interacts with the chlorine to create chloramines - combinations of chlorine and ammonia that don't dissipate from water left in our bucket for a day or two. You may be able to find out from your municipality if they use ammonia. Many municipalites also add fluoride to water because it strengthens tooth enamel. Aside from all of the things I've mentioned in tap water so far, tap water also picks up metals (copper, lead, iron, etc) from running through pipes. Therefore, if you wish to use tap water, purchase a water conditioning product intended for aquariums, such as Tetra Aquasafe or Amquel. These remove chlorine, ammonia/ammonium and chloramines from water, as well as rendering any dissolved metals inert. The tap water is then safe to use with your amphibians.

Well Water - this source of water usually has a lot of extra dissolved salts and metals in it, and unless you have your well water tested regularly, it's best to stay away from it due to the often very high pH and metal content.

Dionized Water - Deionization is a completely different process to Reverse Osmosis and requires different equipment. It removes salts from water and relies on their ionic nature for their removal. It leaves behind any species that are not ionic in nature, including organic molecules and even bacteria.

So now you know.

I just realized I've asked a dozen questions in this forum but never about water. For Frodo we have been using rain water. we have a large pail that fills up when in rains and ive been using it for misting and his water bowl. Frodo was wild caught so I thought it be the best and most natural!

[spankyg]

I have a water distiller in my house.

I keep my tadpoles in distilled water, and they are fine.

How can it harm the frog if the tadpoles love it?

[spankyg]

I'm going to use rain water now anyway just to be on the safe side. I've read too much negative about distilled im paranoid..lol
(sorry for the double post)

[Paul Rust]

Dionized Water - Deionization is a completely different process to Reverse Osmosis and requires different equipment. It removes salts from water and relies on their ionic nature for their removal. It leaves behind any species that are not ionic in nature, including organic molecules and even bacteria.

This is a bit misleading. Although referred to as "deionized" it is actually ion exchange, one ion takes the place of another.

It leaves behind any species that are not ionic in nature, including organic molecules and even bacteria.

This is true, except that you don't run domestic water straight into the resin tanks and out to the loop. The feed water is Reverse Osmosis so most impurities are already removed. It also goes through an ultraviolet sterilizer to kill bacteria. Lastly it is filtered at the sub-micron level to remove the destroyed bacteria and any endotoxin that may have been released into the water stream.

[John]

Arguing with the chemist who works with water, huh Paul.

This is a bit misleading. Although referred to as "deionized" it is actually ion exchange, one ion takes the place of another.

The exchanged ions never make it out of the resin - otherwise there would be little point in the process.

This is true, except that you don't run domestic water straight into the resin tanks and out to the loop. The feed water is Reverse Osmosis so most impurities are already removed. It also goes through an ultraviolet sterilizer to kill bacteria. Lastly it is filtered at the sub-micron level to remove the destroyed bacteria and any endotoxin that may have been released into the water stream.

An R/O-DI system is what you might buy for home use, but in the lab we usually use straight up DI systems that are fed with pre-filtered tap water (2 distinctly different machines/systems). I think it's smarter to not muddy the waters by talking about everything at once though . We're really just getting into semantics.

[Roman]

Hi Guys,
Ive been using a britta. I know its reverse osmosis but, is it good for pixies and pacmans?
Thanks John for taking the time to write all that down for us. Im gonna copy/paste it on the pixie site. It came up a few weeks ago and, no one really knew the answer.

[Paul Rust]

Arguing with the chemist who works with water, huh Paul.

LOL, not arguing John, I'm not crazy.
Just helping to shed some light. I do maintain and monitor 3 large RO/DI systems.

[Leefrogs]

I use my parents well water, 8 ft into water table, and naturally filtered by sand, but close to a two fork river. Much better than mine at 35 feet and full of nitrates. But after reading this I worry about my parents old plumbing. Should I just go buy water conditioner at store or go up the mountain to a natural flowing spring that emerges at 1,000 ft elevation. (pretty high for wisconsin) Locals have used this water forever. Both the spring and my parents water I've tested for nitates in the past both are nitrate free. Are old pipes as dangerous as bad water?