Please help! Whites tree frog problems

[Reptibian]

My whites tree frog Glurp hasn't been doing the greatest the past couple of weeks. He is very lethargic towards crickets (when crickets run into him because they know he isn't a threat he just tucks his head away) and stays in the same spot away from the water all the time. I haven't seen him in water for so long I picked him up (after picking up his sister because she was in the way of me cleaning some poop) and he felt so weak compared to her. His back legs couldn't stop moving but they were moving very slow as if he had no power. His front toes also curled up and felt very weak. He doesn't have that normal whites tree frog smiling face anyone and instead of having his hands together like he is praying his hands are usually under his tucked in head. Please help me I took him to the vet once when he was about a year old and he had red leg. The doctor gave me these shots which Glurp definately didn't like but he got better after a week or so. I always wash my hands before handling both of them. I was suggested to use Luke warm butter with 3 drops of honey. Is that good for him and how often should I do it? I was also suggested to quarantine him in a seperate tank with damp paper toweling (I'd just use the terrarium liner/Eco carpet I already have in there) and a food bowl. I didn't do this yet because I don't want to stress him out. What should I do?

[Lija]

Would you pls answer these questions and post a pic of a frog and enclosure



1-size of enclosure
2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
3-humidity
4-temp
5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6-materials used for substrate
7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
8-main food source
9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often )
10-lighting
11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12-when is the last time he ate
13-have you found poop lately
14-a pic would be great ( including the frog ) any little cell phone pic is fine
15- how old is the frog
16-how long have you owned him
17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats
19- about how often the frog is handled
20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Sorry your frog is not well . Moving a sick frog to a quarantine type enclosure is a standard procedure to prevent spreading pathogen to others and facilitate care. It's important you answer Lija's questions; but please do so with following updated ones. Thank you !

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.
16. How old is the frog
17. How long have you owned him/her
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
20. How often the frog is handled
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

Lija: Hi, where did you get that list? If in one of the sticky threads I need to update it. Thank you !

[LilyPad]

It's post #1 in this sticky, Carlos - http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...enclosure.html

It needs to be updated so that post #20 is #1. I've made the mistake before myself.

[Reptibian]

1. 18"x18"x24"
2. One other whites tree frog (his sister and she is about 1/3 bigger than him)
3. Humidity when misted is about 75%, I allow to drop down to 23% or so (no lower than 20%) avg would be about 30-40%.
4. Around 71-74 during day, and 69-70 at night (have a red night heat light).
5. Live in country so I use our well water as there is no chlorine.
6. Eco carpet on 2/3 and terrarium beaked moss on 1/3 (the part over the heat pad.
7. 3 artificial suction plants on sides, one artificial vine, artificial decorated molded plastic tree thing in center of terrarium, real wood tunnel hide from store, ceramic stone looking large water dish (it's soo heavy for its size lol). Everything was washed with water extensively and is every month when I do a full tank cleaning.
8. Large crickets (some medium sized ones here and there), I put 4-5 in the terrarium every other night.
9. Gut load cricket drink with calcium in crickets cage, some cool calcium supplement spray (basically an easier to use form of calcium powder) I use on the crickets right before I put them in the cage to be hopefully be eaten.
10. Either a zilla day white light 50 watts or zoomed 60 watt basking thing which lasts much longer than the zilla.
11. The day light during the day and a zoomed nocturnal infared heat lamp 50 watts at night. Also have a heat pad on 24/7 which I unplug if the ground temp gets above 90 some so it can cool down.
12. Last time I saw was about a week or 2 ago. He doesn't seem too skinny though (could he be bloated?).
13. 2 nights ago there was a small poo no large than a medium cricket (that is when I had picked up his sister to move her because she eats anything that moves and then I picked him up and felt how fragile and sick he felt).
14. Picture in thumbnail, he is the one on the left and his bigger sister is on the right, I took one of the terrarium but the forum didn't upload it.
15. His underside is a nice bright white so I'm happy that he most likely doesn't have red leg again (he had it when he was 1, I took him to vet and they prescribed some shots and he got better in a few weeks), but now he is always in the same exact spot whenever I check on him even at midnight! He tucks his head in when a crickets walks up to him a bumps into him, the most I have seen him do to gets cricket recently is open his mouth but stay in the same spot, his underside does feel much more mushy than his sisters, and when I picked him up his front toes were curled and his back toes were together instead of apart and he tucked his back legs under him so he sat on them. His face is always in the sleepy "mode" (where he doesn't look like he is smiling his mouth is only slightly curved and his front legs aren't ever "praying" like his sisters they are father apart and his he rests on them. His breathing seems to be slower too.
16. He is 2 years 10 months and 1 day if he was in fact 3 months when I bought him and his sister.
17. 2 years 7 months and 1 day.
18. Captive bred I hope (got them both from Petco).
19. Large crickets (some medium sized ones here and there), I put 4-5 in the terrarium every other night. For either their 1st or 2nd birthday I tried to give then super worms or meal worms (I remember the worms things had voting head and were thin) and they spit them out (I had cut off the heads so they couldn't bite and gross white substance leaked out which I what I think the frogs didn't like).
20. Only handled if in way of water changes, open door fully, cleaning up poop, or when doing a full change cleaning (changing setup etc.).
21. Low traffic- my room which only occasionally my family goes into and which I go into all the time. The terrariums are next to door so I have to be careful walking in not to bump them.
22. Water changes every night, heavy misting morning and night and occasionally during daytime if humidity is low, spit clean poop whenever I see some, full cleaning once a month.

[Lija]

Thanks Carlos


a few things to point here, and im sorry it is not complete list of things to be done, people please add more but im not liking it

humidity - way, way too low, you gotta fix it.
Supplements - not enough. You have to use supplements properly, not just Ca spray, but ca/vit d3 and multivitamins. Both in powder form.
water- even for well water you have to use water conditioner.

Have you ever done fecal tests for them?


I'd start with reptiboost ( dusted on crickets every feeding) and 20 min honey bath ( water level no higher then frogs chin, warm water, few drops of honey), followed with 20 min electrolyte bath( same level of water, 1 part of unflavoured pedialyte, 5 parts of water. Do it everyday for a few days, i very strongly suggest to do fecal test too.

All water has to be conditioned! You need to do electrolyte bath for his sister too and feed her reptiboost dusted crickets too.

[Reptibian]

Humidity- I remember hearing that whites tree frogs are able to get teapot pry and fungal problems in 40-50% constant humidities. You are the expert though so please tell me what the right humidity range should be.
Supplements- I have a powder called ReptoLife plus.which is multivitamins and I have a powder called ReptoCal which is calcium and D3. Should I use those every feeding time?
Water- how much water conditioner do I have to use each time and what brand do I get?

What is repti boost? Where can I get it? For a fecal test do you mean bring it to a doctor?

[Reptibian]

Where can I find unflavored pedialyte? As for conditioning the water I have well water which has no chlorine and they have been using it for almost 3 years with no issues. What is in the water that is harmful?

[deranged chipmunk]

i'm actually bit curious if the frogs have been kept at that humidity for almost 3 years? would seem to me that a lack of humidity would have caused problems much sooner than this. and if he hasn't been soaking, i wonder why not. you said his rear legs don't feel like they have any strength, have you noticed if they twitched at all? i definitely agree with Lija, powders are so much more reliable than the sprays. definitely give electrolyte baths, and i would qt him asap, and keep a close eye on his sister.

as far as humidity, i kept my white's in 76-80% humidity without any issues. that's the higher end of the spectrum for them, but 50-60% is what most people recommend.

[CatherineM]

The range of White Tree Frogs in Australia, contain areas both high and low in humidity.

http://sleamanspace.wikispaces.com/f...a_caerulea.gif

[deranged chipmunk]

That's why I don't think it is humidity related. I knew some of their range is low humidity, I never knew how low though. Thanks for that Catherine


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[CatherineM]

Our breeder said they do better at higher temperatures when sick. He likes is keep his sick ones at 32c.

[Mentat]

It's post #1 in this sticky, Carlos - http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/14323-trouble-enclosure.html

It needs to be updated so that post #20 is #1. I've made the mistake before myself.

Thanks Amy, just sent PM to Lynn and will coordinate with her a fix.

Humidity- I remember hearing that whites tree frogs are able to get teapot pry and fungal problems in 40-50% constant humidities. You are the expert though so please tell me what the right humidity range should be.
Supplements- I have a powder called ReptoLife plus.which is multivitamins and I have a powder called ReptoCal which is calcium and D3. Should I use those every feeding time?
Water- how much water conditioner do I have to use each time and what brand do I get?

What is repti boost? Where can I get it? For a fecal test do you mean bring it to a doctor?

Where can I find unflavored pedialyte? As for conditioning the water I have well water which has no chlorine and they have been using it for almost 3 years with no issues. What is in the water that is harmful?

50-60% humidity in a ventilated enclosure is fine. Well water can contain heavy metals and the better dechlorinators (Seachem Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize) can get rid of those. Follow the dechlorinator label instructions and do not overdose it. Can make 1 gal. or more at a time and store in clean plastic container until use.

Supplements should be used before expiration date and stored in refrigerator. CA/D3 and vitamins should not be used on the same day. Sample schedules available in here: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html. Only products that can be used daily are those specifically made for that like Repashy's Calcium Plus.

ReptaBoost is a food supplemment/replacement for emergency situations. Here is link to product's page: Repta Boost Insectivore/Carnivore.

A fecal exam will require you to collect fresh poop sample, bag it in small ziplock bag, and take/mail to herp veterinary or lab for analysis. They do a fecal float and determine the presence of pathogens like worms or protozoans.

Pedialyte is USA brand of baby electrolyte solution. Look in drugstore's baby section for any unflavored electrolyte solution or powder electrolytes (normally used to prevent baby's dehydration and maintain electrolyte balance during vomiting/diarrhea emergencies) and follow Lija's advice in it's use.

I think Lija has given you great advice. Your frog most probable has several problems to include some that are causing bone and neuromuscular issues.

Also, your temps appear too low to me. Would recommend bring day air temps to at least 80F and provide a basking spot that hits 85F. You can use a mild tropical UVB type bulb (2.0-5.0) for that basking spot. Good luck !

[Lija]

Just to add on humidity issue. Just because somebody can tolerate smth doesn't mean it is good for them to live constantly like that. You mentioned 23% humidity, that is way way too low.

everything else is covered already

[Bombina Bob]

From what i see in your picture of the whites, the substrate is carpet? Carpet can be very
abrasive to amphibians and is suited best for reptiles. I suggest if you can, use a substrate that
can hold humidity better.

[Reptibian]

I used their night time heat lamp with their day time lamp to raise the temperature but put them both on one side of the enclosure. After a little bit he moved to the cooler end (his sister was already their). So I don't think that the temperature is too low.