Genus vs. Specie

[SkeletalFrog]

Given that the native range of Ornates and Cranwells overlap- if young are viable, then they would be geographical subs.
DNA from local-specific specimens would be great, but I'm not trying to burn up a grant here- simply asking for a general consensus.

Not necessarily. The are plenty of clearly morphologically divergent species with overlapping ranges and intermittent hybridization, including the very icons of evolution, Darwin's finches. Hybridization is not a disqualifier for species status.

So far, we only have evidence that they can sometimes hybridize under captive conditions (potentially with mixed success). They may not hybridize in the wild at all due to slightly different breeding times or preferred congregation areas or call preferences, etc. Even if they do, if the hybrids are strongly weeded out of the gene pool, gene flow will be minimal. Heck, even if the hybrids are just as strong, they could be infertile or just never manage to mate because their call has the wrong frequency for either parent (frog mating responses are *strongly* tuned to specific call frequencies).


However, a bit of googling turned up a conclusive answer, in this paper: 1320 Cranial morphology and karyotypic analysis of Ceratophrys joazeirensis (Anura: Ceratophryidae, Ceratophrynae): taxonomic considerations | Mendeley (full version here: http://ecoevo.com.br/alunos/ana_paul...otaxa_2006.pdf)

Basically, ornata is octoploid, while cranwelli is diploid. Any hybrid's cells would therefore have unpaired chromosomes, preventing meiosis and rendering the hybrids totally infertile.

[GrifTheGreat]

Not necessarily. The are plenty of clearly morphologically divergent species with overlapping ranges and intermittent hybridization, including the very icons of evolution, Darwin's finches. Hybridization is not a disqualifier for species status.

So far, we only have evidence that they can sometimes hybridize under captive conditions (potentially with mixed success). They may not hybridize in the wild at all due to slightly different breeding times or preferred congregation areas or call preferences, etc. Even if they do, if the hybrids are strongly weeded out of the gene pool, gene flow will be minimal. Heck, even if the hybrids are just as strong, they could be infertile or just never manage to mate because their call has the wrong frequency for either parent (frog mating responses are *strongly* tuned to specific call frequencies).


However, a bit of googling turned up a conclusive answer, in this paper: 1320 Cranial morphology and karyotypic analysis of Ceratophrys joazeirensis (Anura: Ceratophryidae, Ceratophrynae): taxonomic considerations | Mendeley (full version here: http://ecoevo.com.br/alunos/ana_paul...otaxa_2006.pdf)

Basically, ornata is octoploid, while cranwelli is diploid. Any hybrid's cells would therefore have unpaired chromosomes, preventing meiosis and rendering the hybrids totally infertile.

So basically its saying that Cranwells can only breed with their own kind to produce offspring that are fertile and if they breed with a any other Ceratophrys. The young are to be infertile? So that would conclued that all Fantacy Frogs are mules? Ornates can reproduce with othe Ceratophrys and still produce fertile young?

[SkeletalFrog]

I don't know about *any* other Ceratophrys - they don't mention the chromosome numbers for cornuta, testudo or calcarata. But they at least have the same chromosome numbers as aurita and joazeirensis.

But there's a lot more to hybridization than fertility, and there could be other genetic incompatabilities even between species with the same number of chromosomes.

[GrifTheGreat]

I don't know about *any* other Ceratophrys - they don't mention the chromosome numbers for cornuta, testudo or calcarata. But they at least have the same chromosome numbers as aurita and joazeirensis.

But there's a lot more to hybridization than fertility, and there could be other genetic incompatabilities even between species with the same number of chromosomes.

Aurita and Joazeirensis look like types of Cranwellies with different color patterns. That and the Aurita is supposed to be the largest of the Horned Frogs. I guess one day a breeder will attempt to interbreed the different species and see whether of not the offsoring are fertile. Only time will tell.

[cali]

Interesting read.


Abstract-
"...morphology between C. joazeirensis (8n)..."

Introduction-
"...The greatest difference between the two species is found at the ploidy level, since C. cranwelli is a 2n species and C. joazeirensis PROBABLY an 8n species..."

Discussion-
"...Barrio and De Chieri (1970) registered diploid populations of C. ornata in soggy central areas of Argentina..."

This one alone hints that ornates and cranwells may interbreed where their populations overlap, and that the genus may need multiple new categorys.

As in most papers, the last couple paragraphs are the most interesting.
Looks to me as though it only reinforces the idea that the genus is in need of a massive amount of research, verification and reclassification.

[cali]

This discussion may give birth to a new postulate (for purely hypothetical debate of course)

If "a" breeder (not going to point fingers here) came across a 2n ornate- the hybridization results with a cranwell might be interesting...

[GrifTheGreat]

This discussion may give birth to a new postulate (for purely hypothetical debate of course)

If "a" breeder (not going to point fingers here) came across a 2n ornate- the hybridization results with a cranwell might be interesting...

You can breed Ornates with Cranwellies. The offspring are known as Orwells. Its been done before, but not for quite some time.

[cali]

They may also be called samurais or mutants........