Genus vs. Specie

[cali]

Anybody in need of, or know an individual in need of a topic for their biology dissertation? (hey- possible paper-publication here...)

Pacman's seem to be a great candidate for reclassification (original Genus was described in 1824).

Ceratophrys Cranwelli (Genus/specie) by definition would only be able to breed with (and have viable young) other Ceratophrys Cranwelli (and sub-species of).
If, as I understand it, a "samurai blue" is a cross between Ceratophrys Cranwelli and Ceratophrys Ornata, then they should be grouped as sub-species in a new species category (Ornwelli ?)- whereas Ceratophrys Cornuta- wich is unable to produce viable offspring when crossed with another variant (resulting in "fantasys") would be correctly placed in it's current taxonomical position.

I always found this topic intriguing when I bred Lichanura Trivirgata and Labeotropheus Trewavasae/Fuelleborni.

[pyxieBob]

where did you hear of Samuari Blues being a cross of Cranwellis and Ornata, ?


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[pyxieBob]

they are pure Cranwellis


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[cali]

I was under the impression that they were more than just a color strain- they're total appearance, along with the majority of the japanese varieties, are different than that of a standard phase or albino.

Where is it stated that the blues were originally an anomoly from a breeding pair of cranwell's ?

[pyxieBob]

from the creator himself, Yuskue Murai. i talk to him frequently. and he confirmed they are simply 100% Cranwelli.


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[GeorgiaBulls]

So can cranwelli x ornate offspring breed? Been wondering about this for a couple wks..

[pyxieBob]

that I don't know, does anyone have and pictures of a Cranwelli Ornata cross??


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[RibbitSrUs]

Yes they can be crossed, its a red cranwelli pretty much. I emailed Yusuke the other day and sent him a pic of a red cranwelli i had and he confirmed that it was a cross between a ornate and a cranwelli.

[pyxieBob]

looks like one one my frogs, and yes I know they can be crossed. we were questioning weather or not the Onata Cranwelli crosses can breed


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[RibbitSrUs]

That im not sure of, that would be a good question for Yusuke.

[IvoryReptiles]

My understanding is that the cranwelli ornata cross was done years ago and was tentatively called an Orwell.......I also heard that the offspring were fragile & that none of the originals survived long enough to breed or breeding attempts failed. But that is old information and still needs to be proven either correct or incorrect.

[cali]

I still find the overall look of the japanese verietys suspicious. It's more than just colors. Aren't the eyelid horns more dominant in cranwell's? The blues look to me to have very small horns and a more domed skull. Sure selective/line breeding for a specific trait will tend to have side effects and more genetic variance than just the intended ones, but I still find their look suspect. (And I'm just saying- if I was selling frogs for $5,000 a shot, I don't think I'd be completely forthcoming with my formula)

Granted- the japanese are pretty hard-core when they embrace a project, and they might have come across a random specimen with a one-of-a-kind allele that their entire line of exotic morphs are derived from. But considering how many other breeders there are, in many different countrys, with thousands of eggs in a single clutch- shouldn't someone else have come across a variant without using a breeder from japan?

[GrifTheGreat]

I still find the overall look of the japanese verietys suspicious. It's more than just colors. Aren't the eyelid horns more dominant in cranwell's? The blues look to me to have very small horns and a more domed skull. Sure selective/line breeding for a specific trait will tend to have side effects and more genetic variance than just the intended ones, but I still find their look suspect. (And I'm just saying- if I was selling frogs for $5,000 a shot, I don't think I'd be completely forthcoming with my formula)

Granted- the japanese are pretty hard-core when they embrace a project, and they might have come across a random specimen with a one-of-a-kind allele that their entire line of exotic morphs are derived from. But considering how many other breeders there are, in many different countrys, with thousands of eggs in a single clutch- shouldn't someone else have come across a variant without using a breeder from japan?

I believe the DNA was altered while. In the egg to add color pigment traits that are normally absent. Probably by lacking in one color like black as the Albinos do. Which is why they there are. Lime Green Albinos.

[GrifTheGreat]

looks like one one my frogs, and yes I know they can be crossed. we were questioning weather or not the Onata Cranwelli crosses can breed


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Its funny. In that pic DK looks just like a frog version of Donkey Kong Lol!

[pyxieBob]

I agree w that 100000% Cali. I really do. the fact that the blues retain the color into adulthood and a reg green Cranwelli will ALWAYS turn brown. and the fact that some blues turn into mutants... something is in the water with the blues.........


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[pyxieBob]

totally Griff! something is prob being added at the egg stage. that's how they "triploid" rainbow trout. in the hatchery they apply extra heat and pressure onto the eggs and they truly form a 3rd chromosome an turn into these huge bulky aggressive monsters


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[pyxieBob]

but at the same time, what ever is being done to make these frogs be blue IS genetic because 2 blue pacs bred normally make blue babies


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[GrifTheGreat]

but at the same time, what ever is being done to make these frogs be blue IS genetic because 2 blue pacs bred normally make blue babies


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Yes. The change in the DNA is perminant. So when the cells duplicate they remain in the same altered state so therfore even the cells that the eggs are made up of take on the genetic traits of the parents altered cell and DNA. This also. Makes me conclued that the Blues. That fade to Seafoam green fade to this color because they are possibley taking on a dominant traid from a actaul. Unaltered Cranwelli. You know the way. That all Cranwellies fade to brown.

[pyxieBob]

eeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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[GrifTheGreat]

eeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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Possibley that. A full Blue was bred with a normal Green or Brown Cranwelli and the young would start out with the Blue and then the trait that causes the browns and. Greens to fade becomes dominant and caauses the blue to fade to seafoam. What do you think?