"Gut Loading" vs. Dusting (and another food related question)

[InfinitysDaughter]

I buy my crickets in bulk (50-100 a week) to feed to my 3 frogs (only one is a pac though). I use Flukers "cricket quencher" and "orange cube-complete cricket diet". The quencher is calcium fortified and the orange cube is vitamin fortified and I usually wait a day before feeding new crickets to the frogs so I'm sure the crickets have had time to load themselves up. But I've never dusted for the tree frogs (I just bought my pacman a few days ago).

I've read the care and breeding guide and it said its best to gut load and dust but from everyone I talk to (co workers and customers alike) the crickets seem to either die from shock before the frogs can eat them or there too stunned to move enough for the frogs to be interested.

I was thinking of buying some captive bread feeders (100% parasite free guaranteed) when Baby gets a little bigger (hes way too small to eat even our smallest feeders right now) because I heard that the calcium from the bones from the occasional (1 or 2 a week or so) fish could make up for the lack of nutrients in crickets.


I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on this. I'm just not sold on the dusting thing if gut loading and the occasional treat of fish and pinkies (pinkies when he gets much much bigger) or some other food source could do the same thing.




Also, my other question. My pacy recently had an eye infection and spent several days back where I got him for treatment. I just got him back Saturday but he hasn't eaten anything at all nor seemed interested in food. He's been in quarantine on moist Paper towels with a UTH on the side of the tank since I got him home just to be sure his eye didn't swell up again. I washed out his old cage with scalding hot water and threw away everything and got all new soil, new water dish, and extras just to be sure he was gona go back into a clean, infection free tank.

I'm going to put his original tank back together today so I guess I'm asking if people think he's not eating because of the strange environment of the quarantine tank and if ya'll think he'll start eating once hes settled back into his "normal" environment.

[Heatheranne]

Yes, I would think yes.

[Heatheranne]

Oh, I do not use fish so I can't answer that one. I do however feed my crickets and roaches Flukers quencher and the powdered food, both calcium fortified, and do still dust then every other feeding, just before the feeding .

[LLLReptile]

How much dust are you putting on the crickets? They breathe through their skin/exoskeleton, simply put (it's a little more complex than that), and so when they get heavily dusted they can't breathe. Naturally, when they can't breathe, they can't move, so they look like they've died.

Try dusting them with less calcium. In addition, while gutloading is excellent, and variety of diet is great, it does not necessarily cover all nutritional bases. If you are feeding a truly varied diet with gutloaded insects, then I would still dust, but only once every other or every 3rd feeding of insects. With the crickets, you are also dusting them with calcium to help balance out the excess of phosphorous that makes up their exoskeleton. A light dusting of calcium with D3 essentially balances out the calcium that would otherwise be leeched out of the frog's system to bind with the phosphorous.

As far as not feeding, it is likely a combination of being treated for the eye issue (a stressful event) and being in a strange place. Once he heals up and is back in his normal environment, his appetite should return.

-Jen

[InfinitysDaughter]

How much dust are you putting on the crickets? They breathe through their skin/exoskeleton, simply put (it's a little more complex than that), and so when they get heavily dusted they can't breathe. Naturally, when they can't breathe, they can't move, so they look like they've died.

Try dusting them with less calcium. In addition, while gutloading is excellent, and variety of diet is great, it does not necessarily cover all nutritional bases. If you are feeding a truly varied diet with gutloaded insects, then I would still dust, but only once every other or every 3rd feeding of insects. With the crickets, you are also dusting them with calcium to help balance out the excess of phosphorous that makes up their exoskeleton. A light dusting of calcium with D3 essentially balances out the calcium that would otherwise be leeched out of the frog's system to bind with the phosphorous.

As far as not feeding, it is likely a combination of being treated for the eye issue (a stressful event) and being in a strange place. Once he heals up and is back in his normal environment, his appetite should return.

-Jen

I've actually never dusted before. I've just talked to my co workers and our customers who have. There the ones who have said the crickets are too shocked afterwards. But what your saying does make sense. I cant say currently I'm giving him a variety of things because I've only owned him for about 2 weeks and most of that he was being treated for the infection. Hes actually never eaten for me even when I dangle it in his face but they said he did eat while at the "doctor" so I'm not overly worried. Hes still pudggy so I'd assume hes ok unless he starts loosing weight.

I'll go ahead and get some calcium dust next time I work and see what happens. What your saying about the phosphorus does make a lot of sense.

As for variety, how big would you say he should be before I start giving him things like nightcrawlers? Hes smaller then a quarter right now and I'm only feeding tiny crickets. I refuse to feed any kind of meal worms or super worms because they were responsible for killing a little toad I had when I was in high school (apparently they were still alive after they were swallowed whole, changed into beetles, and ate him from the inside out). Is there anything else I can give him while hes so little or just stick with the crickets for now?

[LLLReptile]

I would wait until he is a couple of inches across before offering something as large as a nightcrawler. Just give it time, pacmans don't need to eat a ton of food anyway, and it may just be stressed out from being offered food a little too frequently on top of the infection treatment. Time, patience, and alone time should fix it up.

The story you describe with the toad in highschool sounds more like it died in the cage, and the beetles ate it, starting with the softest part of the body first. Once in an animal's stomach, the acid inside kills it, or at the very least they are not in there long enough to pupate and turn into beetles - that's a process that can take a week or more! I hear this frequently, and every single time it has been because the animal died prior, and the beetles/superworms/mealworms/crickets ate the animal after it died. This story is like coming across a cow that's died in a field, and a vulture is eating the cow, so you assume the vulture killed the cow. All feeder insects are opportunists, and will feed readily on a deceased animal. They do not eat their way out of the stomach.

-Jen

[InfinitysDaughter]

I would wait until he is a couple of inches across before offering something as large as a nightcrawler. Just give it time, pacmans don't need to eat a ton of food anyway, and it may just be stressed out from being offered food a little too frequently on top of the infection treatment. Time, patience, and alone time should fix it up.

The story you describe with the toad in highschool sounds more like it died in the cage, and the beetles ate it, starting with the softest part of the body first. Once in an animal's stomach, the acid inside kills it, or at the very least they are not in there long enough to pupate and turn into beetles - that's a process that can take a week or more! I hear this frequently, and every single time it has been because the animal died prior, and the beetles/superworms/mealworms/crickets ate the animal after it died. This story is like coming across a cow that's died in a field, and a vulture is eating the cow, so you assume the vulture killed the cow. All feeder insects are opportunists, and will feed readily on a deceased animal. They do not eat their way out of the stomach.

-Jen

How long would it take for the beetles to go after the frog? Cuse he was alive the day before and dead and eaten the next. I mean, ya, I always thought the story was a little fishy (it was what my parents and I were told back then) so I'm not surprised to be wrong. I'm still probably not going to feed mealworms to any of my pets just cuse it brings up negative memories and I'm just a little gun shy about them. ^^;


At the time of my last post I hadn't messed with her for several hours but checked on her a little bit after my last post and found she had eaten one of the crickets I'd put in her tank so shes finally eating.


Thanks for the tip Grif. Question? What are red wigglers?

[GrifTheGreat]

I've actually never dusted before. I've just talked to my co workers and our customers who have. There the ones who have said the crickets are too shocked afterwards. But what your saying does make sense. I cant say currently I'm giving him a variety of things because I've only owned him for about 2 weeks and most of that he was being treated for the infection. Hes actually never eaten for me even when I dangle it in his face but they said he did eat while at the "doctor" so I'm not overly worried. Hes still pudggy so I'd assume hes ok unless he starts loosing weight.

I'll go ahead and get some calcium dust next time I work and see what happens. What your saying about the phosphorus does make a lot of sense.

As for variety, how big would you say he should be before I start giving him things like nightcrawlers? Hes smaller then a quarter right now and I'm only feeding tiny crickets. I refuse to feed any kind of meal worms or super worms because they were responsible for killing a little toad I had when I was in high school (apparently they were still alive after they were swallowed whole, changed into beetles, and ate him from the inside out). Is there anything else I can give him while hes so little or just stick with the crickets for now?

I do both when using crickets. It adds extra benefits to the frog especially since you don't feed the crickets Vitamin D3 when you gut load them. The D3 comes from supplementation by dusting.

You can give appropriate sized pieces of night crawler or red wigglers. Just cut pieces off starting from the tail and rotate from worm to worm so that they have a chance to regenerate. Rule of thumb for crickets is no larger than the distance between the frogs eyes. Worms can be cut into about 1 inch pieces or so. You can dust them as well.

[sobo]

I buy my crickets in bulk (50-100 a week) to feed to my 3 frogs (only one is a pac though). I use Flukers "cricket quencher" and "orange cube-complete cricket diet". The quencher is calcium fortified and the orange cube is vitamin fortified and I usually wait a day before feeding new crickets to the frogs so I'm sure the crickets have had time to load themselves up. But I've never dusted for the tree frogs (I just bought my pacman a few days ago).

I've read the care and breeding guide and it said its best to gut load and dust but from everyone I talk to (co workers and customers alike) the crickets seem to either die from shock before the frogs can eat them or there too stunned to move enough for the frogs to be interested.

I was thinking of buying some captive bread feeders (100% parasite free guaranteed) when Baby gets a little bigger (hes way too small to eat even our smallest feeders right now) because I heard that the calcium from the bones from the occasional (1 or 2 a week or so) fish could make up for the lack of nutrients in crickets.


I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on this. I'm just not sold on the dusting thing if gut loading and the occasional treat of fish and pinkies (pinkies when he gets much much bigger) or some other food source could do the same thing.




Also, my other question. My pacy recently had an eye infection and spent several days back where I got him for treatment. I just got him back Saturday but he hasn't eaten anything at all nor seemed interested in food. He's been in quarantine on moist Paper towels with a UTH on the side of the tank since I got him home just to be sure his eye didn't swell up again. I washed out his old cage with scalding hot water and threw away everything and got all new soil, new water dish, and extras just to be sure he was gona go back into a clean, infection free tank.

I'm going to put his original tank back together today so I guess I'm asking if people think he's not eating because of the strange environment of the quarantine tank and if ya'll think he'll start eating once hes settled back into his "normal" environment.

I use the exact 2 things to feed my crickets as well and I still dust them every other feeding.
The dusting is for vitamin D3 which the cricket food doesnt supply. So you should be dusting them as well as gut-loading, so your frog gets all the vitamins he needs to stay healthy.

If you are worried about the crickets not moving after you dust them, dont be. Simply put a light dust on them and put them in the cage, if they dont move either touch them or blow on them and they will move. Regardless, they will start to move after a few minutes. They only look dead, but really they just cant breathe through the dust very well.

Hope this helps, good luck!