Harsh words = no help!!

[kueluck]

I have seen several threads when some one has come to frog forum for help and then another person will respond harshly on the public site instead of sending their response via PM. The only reason people are here is because they truly love the amphibians and are seeking advise from experienced people instead of all the conflicting information on the web. And also to share in their wonderful experiences they with their amphibians. Yes it's very sad when some one loses a friend because of mis-information, and it's very frustrating to those who read it, but more so the person who lost their frog or toad because of ignorance on their part!?! Think about how they feel! Next time you want to respond in a not so positive way please PM the person. My concern is that if someone is in need they won't look for help here and isn't that what community is about, helping those in need?

[Jenste]

A very good reminder - - the problem with text is it is very hard to convey tone. Something can easily be taken much harsher than intended and it can cause more harm than good.

It is also good to remember to not to "read into" the tone the poster is using - sometimes we can take offense when none is being given.

[kueluck]

Jenna, I agree with trying to convey emotion through text which can be tricky. But then also the emotion of the person on the other side of the conversation may be running high and hard to distinguish what others are trying to say. Most of the people on the site have a love for amphibians that is not understood by most. My husband and friends look at me like I'm some crazy old woman when I talk about my frogs & toads and how excited I get at small things they do. My neighbor gets me, when I'm over at her place and the frogs do something as simple as turn their heads and give you a look we both get excited and laugh. I'm just asking that people praise in public and reprimand in private.

[tgampper]

Hi Gail:

I do understand your concern. As Jenna mentioned, it is difficult to convey the tone of your post. That is why "smilies" should be used often, at least this helps set the proper mood. We are also aware that many people have a difficult time writing what they really feel and sometimes use the wrong word or context. The forum also has many international friends that may not have a good understanding of English. My best advice is to be patient and understanding and not to quickly jump to conclusions.

Another idea that can really help, if someone looses a cherished pet, please don't point fingers at that person and say its their fault. Try to be compassionate and also give the best advice possible. Working together, we can make this forum even better.

[kueluck]

bravo Terry, bravo

Hi Gail:

I do understand your concern. As Jenna mentioned, it is difficult to convey the tone of your post. That is why "smilies" should be used often, at least this helps set the proper mood. We are also aware that many people have a difficult time writing what they really feel and sometimes use the wrong word or context. The forum also has many international friends that may not have a good understanding of English. My best advice is to be patient and understanding and not to quickly jump to conclusions.

Another idea that can really help, if someone looses a cherished pet, please don't point fingers at that person and say its their fault. Try to be compassionate and also give the best advice possible. Working together, we can make this forum even better.

[Poly]

Another idea that can really help, if someone looses a cherished pet, please don't point fingers at that person and say its their fault. Try to be compassionate and also give the best advice possible.

Hey Terry, I agree with your above statement, but to a point.

When I come across threads about people removing WC animals from their natural environments, and subsequently killing them because they did not do research, that is very frustrating, and to be honest I am thinking about how the animals death could have been avoided rather than being "compassionate"...

I realize it's different with CB animals, they were not taken from their natural enviroment, but again, when someone subsequently ends up killing them because they did not do research, it is hard to feel compassion for that person.

What I find disturbing is the "Oh well, I learned something" excuse.

Why does it take the death of someone's animals for them to learn, why not learn beforehand!? It dosen't make sense!

I'm not saying harsh words are in any beneficial to a reply, but there is certainly no issue with letting someone know what they could and should have done to save their pet's life.

[ViperJr]

With the risk of serious emotional ****storm...

I do agree that plainly being mean have obviously no purpose at all. However, there's a difference between being mean, being neutral and just sugarcoating something that really is serious. For example, if someone loses an old frog, that lived a healthy life in good care, there's not much to say (assuming it died of old age), beside giving your condolences. However, if someone post a first post, saying their frog died after a year abruptly after being perfectly fine at the start of their ownership, there is a good reason to start asking questions. Of course, there's no reason to go all "lol u suck u shdnt hav pet ur terrible y did u do nothin?!?!", but I beleive it's not good to be all.. fuzzy, about it either. An animal died, and it could be (and in some cases, it's really obvious) their fault, if I may say so. In these cases, I beleive it can be good to be harsh, because it's simply not OK to get an animal and have no clue what-so-ever on how to care for it. Sure, it's better do to research later than never, but still... I should be done way, way beforehand. Once again, I'm not saying it's good to be rude/mean/talk sh*t, but it is a very serious situation and should be treated like that, not with D just because the person might feel like it's their fault (which, then again, it is in some cases).
Using emotions like /:P/ is all good, but I think it should not be used excessively either. And in some situations, they're better left out of it. But then again, if your post can be interpreted like something that you do not want to, they're a great tool to use that situation.

One other thing, on a slightly related topic. It's not always that tempting to sound all friendly and all-loving, when it's the gazillionth time the same week a new thread is started exact same topic/question... A quick search, or just a look in the relevant section, will often reveal a ton of information. Or when people just ask questions because they're too lazy to Google it themselves (like "whats a dumpy frog"/"does exoterra have lightning bulbs"/other questions that can be found instantly by googling the exact same question).

Also, this forum do lack some of the very basic aspects/understandings/things that most forums have (not saying it's either good or bad, just saying, and this do alter the tone of people/what people say/how they say it.). Many (if not most) forums are much more moderated and do not tolerate (giving out warnings, eventually leading to bans) things like:
- Necroposting
- Starting threads without searching first (and thereby creating a ton of threads with the exact same substance)
- Using threads like a chat

Lastly, it's the Internet. People really should be used by the tone by now.


Now, just sit back and brace for impact...

[kueluck]

Ok, ya'll are missing my point here. I suggest using the PM system for negative responses. (no icon for rolling eyes)

[Poly]

Ok, ya'll are missing my point here. I suggest using the PM system for negative responses. (no icon for rolling eyes)

And you are missing our point. Our responses arn't "negative" we are simple informing the individual what they could have done to save their animals life, how in any way is that negative?

[kueluck]

I'm done with this...........you just aren't getting it. If you're gonna tell somebody that if they would have done this, then their amphibians would most likely still be alive, do it on a PM.

[Poly]

Yeah, yeah, I've got it Gail... I'll respond to your PM now.....

[ViperJr]

This, I really don't get. How is sending a private PM better than posting in public? To me, personally, I would feel way more "abused" or attacked, if you will, if someone PM aggresively instead. Also, if you do not want peoples opinion, a public forum (where forum is the keyword) is probably not the place to post it.

Lastly, this is quite interesting. The OP is stating something and likes people who agrees. But when other people expresses their opinions, which the OP does not agree with, a very defensive and almost rude tone is used, instead of calmly continue the discussing (since there are no right and wrong in this). Quite iroinc, considering the topic of the thread...

[Poly]

Lastly, this is quite interesting. The OP is stating something and likes people who agrees. But when other people expresses their opinions, which the OP does not agree with, a very defensive and almost rude tone is used, instead of calmly continue the discussing (since there are no right and wrong in this). Quite iroinc, considering the topic of the thread...

Gee Martin, what an observation, it does seem that way, dosen't it? Iroinic indeed.

[kueluck]

It comes down to this. Label some one as a “killer” and the chances are they won't be back for help on this site. I just hate to see some one leave and be caregivers of amphibians on their own.

[GrifTheGreat]

Alright guys. Let me lay it down for you. The point is (PUBLIC HUMILIATION AND RIDICULE!) She is trying to stop this by having your fights and scoldings done through PM rather than out where everyone can see and read it. What she is saying makes perfect sence and you all are arguing for nothing. All points aside its obviously getting nowhere. Some thing should be better done in private.

Now I'm no stranger to "giving what for" to those who have bad husbandry due to lack of research and diliborate abuse of their animals for their amusement or because they saw it on YouTube. The point is that we want members and guests to come back and stay here not leave because someone was overly harsh. There is a right way to say they did wrong by their pet publically without truely offending the person.

Believe me I know first hand.

[ViperJr]

I'm done with this...........you just aren't getting it.

To be honest, I'm not sure that it's that I don't get you, as much as it's you not getting me. Perhaps, it's a mix of both.

I suggest using the PM system for negative responses.

I understand what you are saying, but if the forum is supposed to be "positive" responses alone, it's not going to be much of a forum and no discussion at all. Unless you're talking about being simply mean/rude without any help at all, and if that's the case, it should not be PMed at all, but rather left out all together.

Alright guys. Let me lay it down for you. The point is (PUBLIC HUMILIATION AND RIDICULE!) She is trying to stop this by having your fights and scoldings done through PM rather than out where everyone can see and read it. What she is saying makes perfect sence and you all are arguing for nothing. All points aside its obviously getting nowhere. Some thing should be better done in private.

Now I'm no stranger to "giving what for" to those who have bad husbandry due to lack of research and diliborate abuse of their animals for their amusement or because they saw it on YouTube. The point is that we want members and guests to come back and stay here not leave because someone was overly harsh. There is a right way to say they did wrong by their pet publically without truely offending the person.

Believe me I know first hand.

"PUBLIC HUMILIATION AND RIDICULE" is of course not good. "fights and scoldings" should be done by PM, I agree. But I was not talking for any of those things, and I'm pretty sure wasn't Poly either. We both agreed with kueluck, tgampper and Jenste on that point. What we really said was this: "There is a right way to say they did wrong by their pet publically without truely offending the person", which you said yourself. Everyone agrees that it's bad to just flame someone. So, I find your "you all are arguing for nothing" strange, since we basically said the same thing, you, me and Poly (on that subject).

[GrifTheGreat]

To be honest, I'm not sure that it's that I don't get you, as much as it's you not getting me. Perhaps, it's a mix of both.



I understand what you are saying, but if the forum is supposed to be "positive" responses alone, it's not going to be much of a forum and no discussion at all. Unless you're talking about being simply mean/rude without any help at all, and if that's the case, it should not be PMed at all, but rather left out all together.



"PUBLIC HUMILIATION AND RIDICULE" is of course not good. "fights and scoldings" should be done by PM, I agree. But I was not talking for any of those things, and I'm pretty sure wasn't Poly either. We both agreed with kueluck, tgampper and Jenste on that point. What we really said was this: "There is a right way to say they did wrong by their pet publically without truely offending the person", which you said yourself. Everyone agrees that it's bad to just flame someone. So, I find your "you all are arguing for nothing" strange, since we basically said the same thing, you, me and Poly (on that subject).

Everyone has a different perspective of the same point. Me saying you all are arguing for nothing is not stange. Understand that if you all agree on the subject, then why are you 3 arguing about the same point? Instead of you 3 going back and forth over a something you agree on which if you think about it, its silly. You all agree with each other yet you and Royce are ganging up on Gail and even with Royce being a smart*** to Gail. Saying "yeah yeah, We got it Gail. Ill respond to your PM now" is uncalled for.If you all agree than why are you 3 arguing?

It doesn't make sence.

[flybyferns]

I have seen several threads when some one has come to frog forum for help and then another person will respond harshly on the public site instead of sending their response via PM. The only reason people are here is because they truly love the amphibians and are seeking advise from experienced people instead of all the conflicting information on the web. And also to share in their wonderful experiences they with their amphibians. Yes it's very sad when some one loses a friend because of mis-information, and it's very frustrating to those who read it, but more so the person who lost their frog or toad because of ignorance on their part!?! Think about how they feel! Next time you want to respond in a not so positive way please PM the person. My concern is that if someone is in need they won't look for help here and isn't that what community is about, helping those in need?

Oh !!! I can't bear it . I have to chime in- with my acknowledgment to and respect for Frog Forum.

I have (several times) been taken back by a reply to a post. I have logged off thinking I will NEVER go back. Maybe it’s just me; I’m sensitive. I have tried very hard , personally to “get along”, if you will ?

There is a pull here for ME though. It is John. ( and frogs hehehe ) Read his posts ; he never sounds like this !!! Have respect for the founder of this forum! It’s that simple!!

Everyone has heard people disagreeing. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but whatever it sounds like, I believe we can ALL learn something very important from LISTENING to the kind of things (FF members) say to each other. They say things like this: 'How'd you like it if anyone did the same to you?' or “You are wrong” !

What is interesting about remarks like this is that the person who makes them is merely saying that the other person’s behavior does not happen to please them! Unfortunately, some NEVER reply. Sadly, the just go away

AND we ALL know who these members are

Right or Wrong ?- “ The Law of Right and Wrong” aka “the Law of Nature”
These reactions are human nature. But remember, if you leave a fellow FF member unsupported ( in any way ) in mid-air, they will fall like a stone.

I hope you will not misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am not trying to preach, and I do not make believe I am better than anyone else here. I am only trying to call attention to a fact; the fact that this year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed conduct ourselves in the way we should have.

Lynn

[wesleybrouwer]

To be completely honest, i did not read trough all of the posts entirely

But i think that it's just the way someone takes the advice.
I don't see much extreme harsh answers around frogforum.
Telling someone that they are keeping the frogs wrong or whatever, in my opinion, isn't ment to be rude, but to educate.
If this may only be done trough PM, there isn't anything to learn from the mistakes others make.
Maybe someone else reads the advice, and will see the way they are keeping their pets is wrong.
When taking action to this, you may just prevent another frog dying.
You simply can't expect everybody is just cheering you up, encouraging to take a new frog, when it is clearly something that could've been avoided in the first place.

Now there are lots of petstores providing incomplete, incorrect or just no info at all.
But then again, it's the responsibility of the person buying an animal, to know at least what the basic care is.
What i do see a lot, is people start asking questions when it's to late.
Now you may think "it's just a frog", but when you let a puppy die because of neglectency, i bet it's a different story?
Not in my opinion. If you descide to take care of a pet, you have to do everything in you're power to make sure it gets the best care possible.
Going about a forum telling your dog died because you did not know it needed something different then cabbage won't give you people telling you their sorry for you're loss either.

Not to be harsh or anything, but i hope you do reccon were taking responsibilty of a live that can't take care of it's own

[ViperJr]

Everyone has a different perspective of the same point. Me saying you all are arguing for nothing is not stange. Understand that if you all agree on the subject, then why are you 3 arguing about the same point? Instead of you 3 going back and forth over a something you agree on which if you think about it, its silly. You all agree with each other yet you and Royce are ganging up on Gail and even with Royce being a smart*** to Gail. Saying "yeah yeah, We got it Gail. Ill respond to your PM now" is uncalled for.If you all agree than why are you 3 arguing?

It doesn't make sence.

First of all, my post have been cluttered with "personally", "I find", "I think", "I beleive" etc. This means I'm talking about my opinion on these subjects, not necessarily what's objectively right or wrong. I said that I, personally, In my humble opinion, find your statement that we are all arguing for nothing, is a little bit strange, since we are not. We are agreeing on some points, but not on some other. A civilized discussion between people with different opinion is not "for nothing". I do agree with some of the things that have been said here, which I have state several times already. But then again, I have a different opinion on some of the things that are talked about. People having different opinions, and the heart to talk about them, is nothing but good, as long as people know how to discuss without thinking that they are attacked personally. Which leads me to my next point...

You all agree with each other yet you and Royce are ganging up on Gail

How am I ganging up with anyone? Because we have the same opinion..? If so, then you, tgampper, Jenste and kauluck are all horribly ganging up on me, assaulting me even! Of course, that's not the case, and you are not ganging up. Just as I did not gang up with anyone. I just said what I believed, and it's not agreed by everyone, but then again, some do agree. Nothing strange or assaulting in that. I really beleive that people (in general) need to discuss without feeling attacked. I think this subject is a very good one to discuss, and it obviously is since there are different opinions about it. The keyword is just to discuss, not just blinding scream at and flame everyone that does not share your opinions.

If you all agree than why are you 3 arguing?

Just to clarify one last time, since this was the ending question in your post: We are discussing because we have different opinions (about some things, while agreeing on others), simple as that. It sometimes seems like this forum in general (not saying that you or anyone else in this discussion thinks this) treats discussion as bad thing and that it should be avoided by all means. That's bad, if you ask me. Discussion is good. Discussion is a way of learning and sharing opinions. People just need to learn that it's the topic that are discussed, not the people. A forum is meant to be a place where discussion is held, just look at actual word "forum"


EDIT1: I just want to say again, that I personally think sending an angry PM to someone is far more intimidating that replying with a post. But that could very well be just me. (And again, just being plainly mean is not good in any way)

EDIT2: Lastly, I'm done clarifying what a discussion is, and will therefore not adress that anymore. I've delivered my opinion and beliefs on this topic. I will continue following this thread, but only reply to "new information", so to say. I hope everyone reads this thread, since it's a good subject to discuss!