Vertical Conversion of “Zilla Critter Keeper” for tree frogs

[flybyferns]

I did a little humidity experiment today.

Sorry ---this is a lot of information. However, it is very interesting!

Since I have noticed a little less of an appetite in BOTH enclosures; I am also dwelling on what is different in BOTH enclosures? !! It is MISTING w/ Mist King and not manually w/ a spray bottle. But it gets better !

A better explanation might be: since using the MK it's feels different to me when my hands are in the tanks! Some leaves often appear very dry , and other areas very wet. Last night-- I watched a red -eye climbing and his foot got stuck to a leaf! A sure sign that humidity is too low ! (despite the probe gauges reading the humidity in the low 80s at the time ?)
I misted !

My suspicion regarding the humidity ( recently) has been – that it has been too LOW not -- too high.
Note: I increased the MK spray duration of the in both tanks last night.

It’s a different kind of spray:
The mist from the MK is very different when compared to the very , very fine spray that happens manually w/ the mist bottle. It is blocked by the many plants and therefore puddles resulting in more dripping to the floor as well as leaving some areas and plants and glass very dry on the surface. Whereas the manually aimed spray is a fine spray on all areas equally in a deliberate way.

Both of the probe gauges (2 separate enclosures ) have ALWAYS been within 1-2 degrees of each other and 1-2 % different in humidity from each other . These are the same gauges have used prior to using MK. I have been maintaining the humidity as always according to what these gauges read. I have a few temp gauges of different types in each viv that are reasonably consistent w/ each other, especially when set side by side. So I do not think the temp is an issue.

My probe gauges have an open probe end! Like a little cage.
My concerns:
1) The type of mist- wetting some areas a lot and leaving some dry
2) the effect of the MK spray on my probe gauges and therefore the accuracy and swing in readings


TODAY’S EXPERIMENT
THIS IS WHAT I HAVE DONE:
I went to home depot and purchased 2 battery operated temp/humidity gauges and placed one in each viv. They were placed as close to the probe gauges as possible.

I positioned them prior to the 1 pm MK mist:
15 minutes later this is what the humidity readings were:
(Keep in mind I increased the spray duration last night !!!!

TANK ONE ( larger tank) / TANK TWO ( smaller tank)
probe gauge: 85 % H / probe gauge: 89 % H
New battery guage: 74% H / new battery guage: 82%H

watch what happens to the battery gauge reading!

30 minutes after MK mist
TANK ONE / TANK TWO ( smaller tank)
probe gauge: 82 % / probe gauge: 85 %
New battery gauge: 72% / new battery probe: 78%

one hour later
TANK ONE / TANK TWO ( smaller tank)
probe gauge: 78 % / probe gauge: 85%
New battery gauge: 68% / new battery gauge: 74%

1 and ½ hours later
TANK ONE TANK TWO ( smaller tank)
probe gauge: 78 % probe gauge: 82% H
New battery gauge: 67% new battery gauge: 66%

2 hrs later: ( one hour prior to the next MK spray)
TANK ONE / TANK TWO ( smaller tank)
probe gauge: 81 % / probe gauge: 78% H
New battery gauge: 65% / new battery gauge: 64%

As time went on over these 2 hours – the swing between the 2 of them got greater.
Battery operated ( no probe) gauges reads too low.

So, it if did not turn the MK- spray duration- up last night , the humidly would have been even lower today! Based on the 2 new battery operated gauges; It could have been dropping into the 60s’ between sprays. If I had not compared the 2 side by side I probably would have not made any changes.
As mentioned , I did all of this because it feel dry to me as compared to prior to using MK. And my frogs have had a diminishing appetite! Especially the moreletii ( in this new enclosure).

Let’s assume the new battery operated gauges are correct- I have to mist more !
Let’s assume the current probe gauge is correct , I would have left thing the same!
The chances that 2 probe gauges are broken at the same time in unlikely. I think they could be adversely affected by the type of spray form the MK ? I don’t want to move the location of the probe at this point as I will have nothing to compare things to. The temps , by the way, remained consistent w/in 2-4 degrees of each other w/all 4 gauges , and in both tanks.

So what am I going to do? Besides go crazy !!!!!!

1) I ordered 2 new probe gauges (closed probe type) which should arrive soon ( 2 day delivery)
2) I am NOT going to turn the MK up again but supplement w/ the hand sprayer.
3) I am going to leave de-chlorinated water in the MK bucket

Good grief !!!!

[J Teezy]

i don't think the water type would effect the humidity levels at all unless you are solely doing it for the frogs sake, but simple tap water with dechlorinator in it is most likely going to cause your nozzles to clog sooner. one thing i've found over the past couple days is that by hand misting my little 10 gallon the tanks humidity would drop faster than when my mistking was handleing the misting (i had to return my pump and zip drip valve to marty because they were leaking and i just got the replacements today so i'll keep an eye on it to see if what i'm saying holds true) but i also recently moved my heat mat closer to substrate level and my exo terra dual hum / temp probe sits on top of it and i have just a temp probe on the cooler side of the tank. The exo terra probe is an open probe and my sole temp probe is a closed one. As far as temperature accuracy of the two i put them both in the same spot and temp readings were about 1-2 degrees of each other so i'm hoping the humidity reading i'm going off of is pretty accurate. I'll probably get a closed humidity probe in the future as well though just to be safe, especially once my 29 gallon viv is up and running as the darts that are going to be in the 10 gallon will be getting moved to the 29. The exo terra gauge is also battery operated. I'm probably going to pick up a manual gauge at the reptile show this weekend just to have something to check accuracy against with.

Come on Lynn go buy one of those EcoZone controllers so you can run 4 dual temp / humidity probes at once!!! Christmas can't come soon enough because I know I'm getting myself one then unless i hit the lottery before then =).

Also have you thought of maybe calibrating your humidity gauges to see if maybe they are off?

[DonLisk]

Are both tanks using the same lighting?

If your monitoring during lit conditions then the lighting is going to burn off the humidity and if different lighting is used you will have that reduction be different between tanks.

I monitor mine more at night when my frogs are going to be active. Day time, my humidity will shoot up when the MK runs but will soon drop to about 55 to 60 percent which is fine for REFTs. (We have some very dry heat in my apartment)
At night the humidity shoots up and stays up around 70 percent and once the MK kicks in the humidity rises to about 80 -85 percent for a short time and then back down to 70 - 75 percent. I'm using the ZooMed digital hydrometers.

I think as long as your in the 55 - 60 percent range at its lowest during the day then the frogs are getting the humidity they need and i would not over think it.

I have my MK running 15 second sprays at 8am, 12 noon, 6 pm, 10,pm, and then again at 12 midnight.
I use these settings since the MK is also running on three dart tanks which are 99 percent sealed up and the RETF tank has both top and bottom ventilation. I have not had to drain the RETF tank since the MK has been on it but do on the dart tanks every two weeks.

[flybyferns]

Are both tanks using the same lighting?

If your monitoring during lit conditions then the lighting is going to burn off the humidity and if different lighting is used you will have that reduction be different between tanks.

I monitor mine more at night when my frogs are going to be active. Day time, my humidity will shoot up when the MK runs but will soon drop to about 55 to 60 percent which is fine for REFTs. (We have some very dry heat in my apartment)
At night the humidity shoots up and stays up around 70 percent and once the MK kicks in the humidity rises to about 80 -85 percent for a short time and then back down to 70 - 75 percent. I'm using the ZooMed digital hydrometers.

I think as long as your in the 55 - 60 percent range at its lowest during the day then the frogs are getting the humidity they need and i would not over think it.

I have my MK running 15 second sprays at 8am, 12 noon, 6 pm, 10,pm, and then again at 12 midnight.
I use these settings since the MK is also running on three dart tanks which are 99 percent sealed up and the RETF tank has both top and bottom ventilation. I have not had to drain the RETF tank since the MK has been on it but do on the dart tanks every two weeks.

Thanks Don,
The humidity levels are much better the last 36 hours. Nice and stable.

I think I am ,simply, looking for reasons as to why she is not eating !
She did ok last night. I guess she is still adjusting?

Lynn

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks very much, Brian
It has been relaxing and fun doing this conversion.
I enjoy taking care of the plants-too!
That's why I have gone through so much trouble w/ the planters.
Martin ( ViperJr) inspired me to create a separate place for my A. moreletii ; otherwise I would have never done it.
I had this "critter keeper" . It was my very first viv. I figured it was worth a try to convert it.

Autumn has done a conversion w/ this same enclosure as well. It's beautiful!

Lynn

i don't think the water type would effect the humidity levels at all unless you are solely doing it for the frogs sake, but simple tap water with dechlorinator in it is most likely going to cause your nozzles to clog sooner. one thing i've found over the past couple days is that by hand misting my little 10 gallon the tanks humidity would drop faster than when my mistking was handleing the misting (i had to return my pump and zip drip valve to marty because they were leaking and i just got the replacements today so i'll keep an eye on it to see if what i'm saying holds true) but i also recently moved my heat mat closer to substrate level and my exo terra dual hum / temp probe sits on top of it and i have just a temp probe on the cooler side of the tank. The exo terra probe is an open probe and my sole temp probe is a closed one. As far as temperature accuracy of the two i put them both in the same spot and temp readings were about 1-2 degrees of each other so i'm hoping the humidity reading i'm going off of is pretty accurate. I'll probably get a closed humidity probe in the future as well though just to be safe, especially once my 29 gallon viv is up and running as the darts that are going to be in the 10 gallon will be getting moved to the 29. The exo terra gauge is also battery operated. I'm probably going to pick up a manual gauge at the reptile show this weekend just to have something to check accuracy against with.

Come on Lynn go buy one of those EcoZone controllers so you can run 4 dual temp / humidity probes at once!!! Christmas can't come soon enough because I know I'm getting myself one then unless i hit the lottery before then =).

Also have you thought of maybe calibrating your humidity gauges to see if maybe they are off?

Hey JT,

Lynn changed to De-chlorinated water because too much exposure to distilled water is bad and can cause health issues with frogs. Its mineral and salt lacking and actually steals vitamins, minerals, and salts from your frogs. She told me earlier that her frog was sitting in direct. Spray path with the MK and so would be soaked several times a day. Very unhealthy for the frog.

I almost have the substrate basket finished for my Viv. Its takesn some time.

[Heatheranne]

Wow Lynn, I somehow missed this post, but it's fabulous!!! Likely due to my work schedule. Anyway, your viv is beautiful and excellently crafted! I hope your humidity says relatively consistent soon.

I've wanted a mistking, but haven't purchased one yet. I currently use a hand-pump pressurized sprayer I purchased from Kmart. It holds quite a bit of water and by twisting the nozzle end I can adjust the size of the misting droplets and pressure when sprayed. It works nicely, but definitely takes more time when having to spray 5 tanks.

Your background painting turned out awesome!!! Ooh, my mind is rolling as to what to do next. I've thought of etching small designs up the sides of my tanks but it would be tough to do once filled and heavy. I'd have to do it prior to setting it up. maybe someday .

[helm96]

Hey Lynn, I use the Flukers Digital Hygro/Thermometer. I ran into the same issue with the dial probes I found that they were off anywhere from 5-10 degrees/% and after adding my digital my little friends are happier. Here is a link for it from amazon.

Amazon.com: Fluker's Digital Thermometer / Hygrometer: Pet Supplies

Hope it helps!

[flybyferns]

Wow Lynn, I somehow missed this post, but it's fabulous!!! Likely due to my work schedule. Anyway, your viv is beautiful and excellently crafted! I hope your humidity says relatively consistent soon.

I've wanted a mistking, but haven't purchased one yet. I currently use a hand-pump pressurized sprayer I purchased from Kmart. It holds quite a bit of water and by twisting the nozzle end I can adjust the size of the misting droplets and pressure when sprayed. It works nicely, but definitely takes more time when having to spray 5 tanks.

Your background painting turned out awesome!!! Ooh, my mind is rolling as to what to do next. I've thought of etching small designs up the sides of my tanks but it would be tough to do once filled and heavy. I'd have to do it prior to setting it up. maybe someday .

Etching !! That would beautiful !! And you are so artistic !

[flybyferns]

Boggie's photo from a few minutes ago.

[flybyferns]

"Boggie" up-date

5 minutes ago


I don't think she is sick. She looks too good. Acts pretty normal. Although, sleeps more? If she does not eat she will be sick.
But, I don't want to take any chances. She was going on 10 days.

I force fed her on Tuesday.
( 3 small , headless,legless, dusted crickets) I mushed them up --- in put them into small syringe( needless, of course)
and pushed them into her mouth. She swallowed normally like she would have if she caught a cricket. I put her back on a leaf and she went back to sleep.
I have not done this in a while. NOT FUN !! Not since 2010 when I rescued my red eye - "Monkie"

I have been dribbling on pedialye soaks OR dipping her and the leaf she is on-- so I do not have to wake her. She has ALWAYS 'slept like a log'.
She does not even wake up when she gets a leaf dip !!!

I have spoken to FF members that I truly respect! And agree that -- maybe she is still adjusting AND perhaps adjusting to being alone?
Not being w/ the group was my very first thought? One night , I watched her go up to the corner of her new enclosure and get as close to the red eye calls as she could be.

I suppose, if she does not start eating on her own , I could put her back in with the red eyes until her company is old enough to be in with her, which would not be until summer as Michael Novy says it will be 6 weeks. ( he has black eye tads) Then they have to grow , and be quarantined. Or, I could, move one red eye in with her? I don't know ?

She was up, alert and shed last night.

For the time being I am leaving de-chlorinated water in the mist king bucket vs distilled, to reduce the frequent spraying w/ distilled water.

For now the situation requires patience !
Lynn