Sub-adult fantasy frog flipping onto back, not feeding

[SkeletalFrog]

So, I've recently had a spate of bad luck with fantasy frogs, detailed in this thread: http://www.frogforum.net/pacman-frog...og-deaths.html The short version is that I had two young fantasy frogs die on me, a year apart, and I could not figure out any discernible reason. All of my care seemed ideal, different sources, etc., and other frogs have done fine (Rana & Ascaphus)


Because I'm nothing if not persistent, I decided to try again with a sub-adult I saw online, which I bought back in October, a bit more than 1" around. Housing is a long, wide critter-keeper (one of the bigger, shoebox-sized ones), with a ceramic heat bulb over one side (elevated significantly above the tank), and a plastic log to hide in. Baseline temperature is about 77, the warm end is 83, verified with an IR tempgun. All water has been Poland Springs springwater, so no chlorine/chloramines/etc. but also without the problems of distilled water (I was worried something in my tap water killed the others). For the first week, I kept him on moist paper towels for quarantine, then moved him into eco-earth (hydrated with Poland Springs).

The problem is, he's *never* been a champion feeder. My prior frogs would lunge after anything that moved, but my only evidence for this one eating is the disappearance of crickets from his tank. Recently, he's started flipping onto his back, apparently due to failed hops. He's always fine once he's been righted, but cannot seem to right himself. He also has been eating fewer and fewer crickets. Lastly, his posture seems odd - he's always laying pressed flat to the ground, and will not raise himself up even if assisted by me.

I've been force-feeding him periodically, using a mix of ground shrimp pellets, vitamin powder, and Calcium/D3/Phosphorus powder, but I'd prefer (obviously) to get him eating on his own. In his latest feeding, he ate none of the crickets provided. Last night, I tried soaking him in a 1:10 mix of Pedialyte and water, but it's too soon to tell about that. I've also moved him back to quarantine state (paper towel substrate) to better monitor him. His green coloration has also faded a bit lately. He's pooped at least once, possibly more, since I got him, and that poop has contained cricket parts, so he's eaten at some point.


Summary:
- Two prior young fantasy frogs that died for no discernible reasons, other species/genera have been fine
- New, larger frog is weak, lethargic, will not lunge for crickets, and flips on back.
- Care is completely by-the-book, checked and re-checked.
- Force feeding to maintain / restore strength.

He clearly must be capable of survival, otherwise he never would have reached this size (which is the whole reason I bought him). I've included some photos to show size and posture.


Here he is on a scale, with a quarter next to him for scale. His weight has been in the 20g range, but this is lower than usual. I'll be force-feeding him again tonight, since last time was about 2 weeks ago.


Closeup, showing his "flattened" posture. He holds this posture even when in his tank.

[Sunshine]

Why do you have him on paper towels? He needs to be on coco fiber substrate. Him flipping on his back is a sign of severe stress and the fact that he is flattening out seems like he wants to burrow but there is no place to burrow? Also force feeding should only be used as a last resort because it is very stressful on the frog. I would remove the paper towels and add some moist (but not soaking wet) coconut fiber bedding such as plantation soil or bed a beast. Cover 3 sides of the enclosure with dark colored construction paper or posterboard so that he feels more secure. Place a couple of food items in the tank and leave him be for a little while.

[GrifTheGreat]

To clearify Sunshines responce. Flipping over is a sign of severe stress. Usually they can right themselves though. Theflattening out is not uncommon in Pacman frogs. A lot of the time they press themselves to the soil to absorb water and don't always hold a high posture. Fear will also be a reason his posture is flattened. The will hunch down like this in responce to fear. If you suspect disease or illness it would be perfectly acceptable for SkeletalFrog to place the frog on a paper towel substrate while treating the frog. That being said though I don't believe this is the case. I believe your frog is stressed for some unknown reason. Fantacy frogs are severely prone to stress and loss of appetite due to it. C. Cornuta which is a half parent to this mix bred frog is also just as prone. Covereing 3 sides of the enclosure is a good idea.if you haven't already done so. Temps for babies and juvies should top out at 82 and humidity should be high at 75 to 80% and maintained most of the time that way. Night time temps should be at 78 and kept there. Also you may be getting drafts into the enclosure due to your heat element being high above the enclosure. Try keeping the temps in this range. Force feed I only if necissary.

Keep us posted on any changes.

[SkeletalFrog]

Thanks Grif & Sherry!

I've moved him back over to cocofiber, and covered the tank completely, so hopefully he'll be less stressed. I'll update in a bit, once I know how well he's responding.

[Sunshine]

You are welcome! Looking forward to an update! He is an adorable frog!!

[GrifTheGreat]

You're welcome. Keep us posted. He is. As Sherry said very adorable.

[Heatheranne]

Good luck with your baby! My fantasy was quite shy at first, but after following everyones recommendations here, she is no longer shy And she eats like a champ. I feed mine crickets and dubias. They definitely prefer the dubias. As soon as they hit the substrate they are gone . My baby will eat cut red wiggler worms once in a while. My larger cranwelli is not so fond of them, but absolutely loves his dubias.

Keep us posted.

[SkeletalFrog]

Well, no luck on the dubias - I put 6 in on Sunday and he's eaten none of them. So far the only thing I haven't tried is earthworms, but I don't trust local worms (Providence has VERY high lead levels in the soil) and it's too cold to ship.

Anyone have any new suggestions? Should I just keep trying with crickets and dubias until it's warm enough to ship worms, and force-feed if his weight drops? Any special tricks for inducing feeding?

[GrifTheGreat]

Well, no luck on the dubias - I put 6 in on Sunday and he's eaten none of them. So far the only thing I haven't tried is earthworms, but I don't trust local worms (Providence has VERY high lead levels in the soil) and it's too cold to ship.

Anyone have any new suggestions? Should I just keep trying with crickets and dubias until it's warm enough to ship worms, and force-feed if his weight drops? Any special tricks for inducing feeding?

Well there is a trick for inducing hunger in Pacmans, but you'll have to monitor your little guy closely. Note that I am not an expert. This is something I've been using off and on.

He probably sences winter has set in which can make Pacman frogs stop eating or just eat less. You can try raising his temps higher than normaly accepted levels. I do this occationally for a couple hours at a time. You could try to first raise the temps to the maximum excepted level of 84 to 85 which can be fine for babies while monitored. I sometimes raise temps in excess of 86 to 87 for a couple hours at a time. I don't reccomend this often because even though in the wild they experience much hotter conditions, but in captivity we should strive for a more ideal level as you already know. I have even went to 88 once or twice. Now this was ambient enclosure air temp not hot side so the hot side of the tank will be higher probably around 90 which is why I don't reccomend this to Just anyone who's frog is not eating.

You being an experienced keeper could try this. Very close monitoring definetly needs to be done while trying this method so you can interveneif necessary. Heat is how their digestive system metabolizes food and can also spark hunger so it may work, but of course if there is some other underlying issue there is no guarantee.

Keep us posted of whatever you decide. You could just force feed him to get him through winter and do so until he feeds on his own again as well. It may be easier than what I've suggested. If you decide this method be sure there is also a way for the frog to escape the heat like deep substrate and water dish full.

[SkeletalFrog]

Thanks, that's a nice trick to have as backup. Winter is winding down here, so I'll keep an eye on his weight and try this if he's losing too much weight and/or not eating once it's fully spring.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks, that's a nice trick to have as backup. Winter is winding down here, so I'll keep an eye on his weight and try this if he's losing too much weight and/or not eating once it's fully spring.

He probably won't lose weight as long as you force feed him. You can use a seringe to feed him high calorie canned cat food. Its easy to digest and swallow. I've used it and it worked great.