Red eyed Tree Frog setup questions

[J Teezy]

Hello, I'm looking into getting a red eyed tree frog. Here are some questions i have

1. What's a good suitable size terrarium for 1-2 (I'll start with one but if it goes well would probably add a 2nd)

I'm looking at the Exo Terra Rainforest Kit medium (18x18x24). Would this be suitable for 1-2 or do i need to get the X Tall model which is 36" tall


2. Fogger vs Mister

in order to provide the humidity what is a better setup for this? A mister or fogger. The mister I've looked at would be the Exo Terra Monsoon Rainfall Misting System. The fogger would be the Zoo med Repti fogger humidifier

Another question would be, if both are suitable choices how would having both workout? I like the fogger just for the visual it creates in the tanks for say showing off to friends, etc. They both add great visuals to a "rainforest" setup

Also, is there some kind of timer that you could put on the mister / fogger that kicks on when humidity drops below a certain point and kicks off once it reaches a certain point?

3. I have a tendancy to travel in the spring - summer for 7-10 days at a time to my families lake house. I'm assuming I would need to have someone who can come over and take care of the frog(s) during that time. If that's not available what kind of temporary home would i need to have for the frog(s) that i can take with me or have at my parents lake house to house them for those days.

4. For heating, what kind light bulbs are needed and typically how long do they need to stay on? All the time? Is it ok to use something like a blue tinted bulb to create a night time (moon light effect) for certain periods through the day (typically at night) to create a nice visual or will the terrarium loose too much heat if it doesn't have a light source giving off heat all the time?

5. What's the best kind of substrate to use for red eye tree frogs and how much should you put in? (I plan to decorate with the fake plants and jungle vines that come in the kit)

[ViperJr]

Hello and welcome to the forum! Very good questions to ask, and kudos to for you doing it the right way. Setting up first, purchase frog later!
I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability, and hopefully someone else can add their point of views as well.

1. The short (but unsatisfying answer) is "the bigger the better". However, since that's not always very practical... A 18x18x24 is ok for 1-2 frogs. An guideline is 1 frog per 10 gallon, and an 18x18x24 would provide approximately 33 gallons. However, if you ever want to add more than 2 frogs, it's getting a little crowded. If you could, do get the taller model (even if you don't want more than 2 frogs). It's not much more expensive and it's worth the extra volume. But if you can't, the 18x18x24 is sufficient for two frogs, yes. What you can do (and I'm not sure that this actually helps, but it feels better) is to elevate the terrarium, by placing it on a table stand or something like that. I'm imagining it helps provide an elevated habitat for the frogs. If it actually helps... Who knows.

2. Both a fogger and a mister are acceptable alternatives when dealing with red-eyes. They do, however, result in different maintenance. The fogger will raise the humidity , without adding much actual water to the tank (other than ambient humidity). It's nice, because you'll never find an unintentional lake at the bottom of the enclosure, when being away a few days. However, it will not water the plants much as much, and will pretty much only do for sturdy, epiphytical plants (like pothos (Epipremnum aureum) and bromeliads).

You can certainly use both if you really like how the fog looks, but want to rely on a mister for the actual job. However, this seems like an unnecessary extra cost. But, it will not workout badly, so it's up to you if you want to add some extra bucks for the looks of it. Then again, foggers (and all amphibian accessories) are close to free in the USA...

And yes, like there are thermostats (which regulate the temperature according to what you want, with the plugged in heating devices), there are hygrostats as well. Zoo med have a combined thermostat and hygrostat, which is supposed to work like a charm. I've never used one myself, but from what I've heard you can setup pretty much everything you need. Upper limit, lower limit, supports heating/cooling-sdevice and humidyfing/drying-devices, and different settings for night and day. But this is just from what I've heard, be sure to read about it yourself before purchasing it.
HygroTherm

3. 7-10 days should not be a huge concern. They will survive that time without food without problem. You could also load the terrarium with some additional feeders before going away, since red-eyes often regulate themselves and not eat until they burst (like some other frogs). I do not recommend taking the frogs with you. This will create an immense amount of stress, and I figure you can't take a nice, big tank with you, so it'll be a much smaller container. It's probably better to get a friend of yours to check on the frogs. 1 time should be enough in 7 days, but more is of course always better.

4. It's impossible to say how much and long your heating devices needs to stay on, since it depends on your setup. You should rather learn the recommended temperatures, and then adjust your equipment to maintain that as closely as possible. Regarding night time lights, it could work with an 50W blue bulb (like Exo-terra have) connected to a dimmer. Some say that their frogs don't mind, but a lot of people say that it's to much light for the frogs to be active. They are extreme night-dwellers, and needs a very dark surrounding at night. Otherwise, they might not get up at all.

5. Best type of substrate is a hard question, but there are some that frequently recommended. Plantation soil, coco husk, sphagnum moss and leaf litter. Many people put the leaf litter of top of their substrate, since this creates a nice "floor" to hide the actual substrate. This is very good when using large amount of sphagnum moss, since that kind of moss is a real danger if digested by the frogs (even though it's great at maintaining moisture). Coco husk is also something you would want to hide, since it's big chucks that could be a danger if a frog manages to eat it.
As an example, let me describe my setup for you.

Bottom: Gravel as a drainage layer (however, LECA/hydraton is preferable. It much lighter, and it's not as prone to anaerobic bacterial as gravel is (or so I've heard).
Middle: Coco husk. Holds a lot of water and gives the plants something to hold on to.
Top: Sphagnum moss. Holds a crazy amount of water, and it NEVER goes bad. However, like I said, you either want to cover it up, or use a espace-proof feeding bowl (like a glass bowl) for the feeders, so the feeders absolutely can't get out.


Lastly, let me give you some general advice to either use, or just disregard

- You will need more than what the rain forest kit includes in order to make a decent home for tree frogs. It's simply not enough. Since they generally don't travel on the substrate unless it's absolutely necessary, you'll need plants/vines/branches/etc. everywhere, so they can get around the entire enclosure without having to walk on the surface. There are a lot of good plants suitable for this, my favorites being pothos (Epipremnum aureum), snake plant (Sansevieria trifasciata), Dieffenbachia, lucky bamboo (Dracaena sanderiana) and different kind of bromeliads. There are several members here with great enclosure for red-eyes (and tree frogs in general), be sure to check out their photo albums!

- Even if you use leaf litter, I highly recommend an escape-proof feeding bowl. You'll know exactly what your frogs ate and not ate. It's also easier to clean, since there will not be dead feeders in the substrate.

- The light source used to create the day/night-cycle should be on a timer for consistency. It's not that great if you someday forgets to turn off the lights, and they'll have a 72 h day. All heating devices should always be connected to a dimmer, in order to adjust the heat needed.

- Get everything setup well before the frogs arrive. This way, you can adjust the temperatures, humidity, decoration etc. before the frogs arrive. You don't want to have to deal with that when they are in their new home.

- Enjoy the amazing specie Agalychnis callidryas!



(This became quite the monster-reply... That means, there's probably a lot of strange English in there. Bare with me, I'm not a native English speaker)

[J Teezy]

Thanks for the reply

One thing is that I plan to use fake plants for this project since this is my first time getting involved in frog keeping. Now with fake plants would the fogger be better over the mister since there will be no plants that need water from a mister?

Like you said the kit doesn't have enough decor to make a good home, I planned on adding more vines and fake plants to give the red eye plenty of climbing material.

This may sound stupid but I just want to make sure of things. You say use a feeder bowl. Are we talking just some kind of dish to put crickets in for the Red Eye. Will they not jump out of it? Is there a particular product you recommend or just use some ordinary little dish?

Since i'm not going to use live plants (though i would like to, i just dont think its a good idea for my first time frog adventure, and with being away 7-10 days at a time during the summer) does this change up substrate ideas for fake vs live plants. Also, with fake plants how oftern or how do you go about cleaning the substrate? Do you remove it all every so oftern and replace it with fresh substrate? I'm guessing just wiping off the fake plants with a water damp paper towel when necessary would be the proper way to clean the fake plants as well?

Thanks again for your reply. I'll be using this thread for all my questions in starting this froggy adventure.

[ViperJr]

I'm only using the ReptiFogger in my red-eye tank, and I've got tons of plants in there, all thriving and growing like there's no tomorrow, so it'll be good either way. The key is what kind of plants you use. The pothos, for example, is epiphytic and therefore it absorbs everything it needs through the leaves, and does not need to be planted in soil. I really suggest using a pothos, even if it is your first frog-experince. Like DonLisk (I think...) said in another thread, "If you can keep a frog alive, you can keep a pothos alive". They are pretty much indestructible, grow like crazy, easily support the weight of red-eyes, help maintain humidity and are just pure awesomeness. You can even just keep it in the pot if you want to (as long as you repot the plant with new, unfertalized soil, like Exo-Terra's Plantation soil) and just burrow the pot. You got nothing to lose and much to gain, so give it a try!

Your plant choice does not change the substrate choice, no. Regarding cleaning it, it's not that big of a deal. One or two red-eyes does not create much waste. Spot-clean when you see it (not uncommon to find it on the leaves), but other than that, not much to do. You could replace the substrate once in a while, but you don't have to worry about it so much. As long as the substrate does not sit in water for a long time (like if using coco husk without a drainage layer, and a mister), it's not going to get bad that quickly. Hard to say, but 1-2 times per year, perhaps, at most? Of course, if you actually see it going bad, just change it.
Cleaning plants, fake or not, is just a matter of wiping the leaves. However, there's not much to clean, other than the occasional poop.

When I say escape-proof feeder bowl, I mean something like an ordinary glass bowl, where glass is the key. Crickets (or dubias, which I think are much better feeders) can't climb on the smooth surface. They can't jump either, since they don't get enough friction to do so.


Lastly, if you decide on using live plants (which you should ), there are some things to remember. When purchasing the plants, they'll most certainly be planted in soil that's filled with fertilizers. It's not unusual for the leaves to contain some other nasty stuff as well, so you do want to make them frog-safe. This is how I do it:
Take the entire plant out of the pot and remove as much soil as you can. After that, rinse it through water thoroughly to get all the soil away. When that's done, rinse the plant (all the leaves etc.) itself thoroughly. When that's done, clean the pot (just water, no chemicals, since that's probably even worse for the frogs) and then repot the plant with clean soil. I recommend Exo-Terra's Plantation soil of Zoo meds' Eco-Earth.

Thanks again for your reply. I'll be using this thread for all my questions in starting this froggy adventure.

Please do! I'm happy to help when I can

[J Teezy]

thanks again for more information. Been reading and looking at stuff all day.

False bottoms

I've seen alot of these "false bottom" tanks. Are these mainly for tanks that have water pools and such. I really don't want to have to make one of these if I don't need to. I'm trying to keep this pretty simple. I understand that though red eyes like to spend their time perched out on plants and rocks or what not high up that they need a water pool still in case they choose to get in it? Is this correct. For this I assume that the little water bowl thing that comes with the exo terra rainforest kit will be sufficient enough, i just need to change that water out daily and make sure its not deep enough so the froggie will drown correct? (and what about how i mentioned that i go away for 7-10 days at a time, would the water pond be ok for that time if i can't get a friend to go change it?

I've seen some pretty sweet looking Do It Yourself waterfalls that some people have made especially the ones RudeReefer makes my method of building fake / faux rocks - Vivarium Forums but I'm not ready for something like that yet. I'd most likely go with one of the commercially made ones like this

I like the design of the waterfall you have in your pictures, what brand model is that?

so far my knowledge i've collected to get ready to start this is growing

1. Exo terra rainforest kit terrarium (most likely going to go with the 18x18x24 but if i can find a good price on the 36" tall one I'd like that one to give the froggy more exploration).

2. The kit comes with some decor but I need to add more for it so will get some more fake vines and fake jungle plants

3. The red eyes dont usually go on the substrate so provide vines or plants so that the frog can get down to the water pond and feeding bowl areas without having to walk on the substrate

4. Layer my substrate with several kinds of material (i read about some kidns of substrate sticking to the frogs =( so is there a certain type used on the top layer that doesnt stick to them if they should happen to get down in it

5. Fogger and mister are used to provide the humidity. I'll probably go the fogger route to start since it is pretty cheap for a zoo med repti fogger and i like the fog look. If i don't have a mister system would i still need to mist with a hand bottle if I don't use any live plants? though i will probably take your recommendation and toss a pothos in there to break up the total fake plant look, which i assume i would then need to mist the pothos every so often?

6. Lighting is something I still need to tackle. The exo terra kit comes with a light housing for i think its 25w bulbs and can hold two. What kind of bulbs should i use or do you recommend. I was thinking of putting a blue light in as one of the bulbs for a moonlighting effect at nightime for we too view the frog under (i plan on putting the terrarium in my home office where my computer and video games are where i spend most of my time when i'm at home. I would want some type of brighter light to keep on during the day i assume, then switch to the blue light in the evening then go no light at all when i go to sleep. Will the blue light keep the froggy awake? What are their sleep patterns like? Do they like to sleep in total darkness, daylight, etc? I live in Cincinnati, Ohio where the weather here can get really cold in the winter and really hot in the summer. In the winter i usually keep my thermostat around 69 F and in the summer around 73F. What's a good way to keep a steady temperature in the terrarium for a red eye?

7. Whats a standard feeding schedule for a red eye? How many crickets and how often. I read you should gut load the crickets first with a slice of apple before feeding them to the froggy as well.

[ViperJr]

A false bottom is just a fancy drainage-layer, which people use so the substrate won't stay waterlogged and get bad. I just use gravel instead (although LECA/hydraton is better). I do suggest that you use some sort of drainage-layer, since you do want to moist the substrate occasionally. A layer of LECA should do the trick.

They do occasional soak in water, which means do you want to provide them with a water bowl. It does not need to be anything fancy, could be anything from an nice looking reptile-brand water bowl or just a plastic box. Like you said, there is one in the rain forest kit, and it'll do just fine (and it looks good). Just make sure it's not super deep, but I don't think that's going to be a problem with that bowl. You could add a semi-large rock in it (or something like that), so it'll be even easier for the frog to get out of the water. They will almost exclusively just sit on the edges, letting the backside of their body slide in the water. They won't get completely soak (at least mine won't).
Now, I don't know exactly how big that bowl is, but it's possible that it won't last very long in 10 days. However, if you are planning on getting a waterfall, that's probably not going to be a problem since they hold much more water. And that leads me to the next subject.
I have an Namiba Terra waterfall, which I like a lot. The only problem is that it started to leak after a while (it was probably of poor quality from the beginning, just took it a while to actually break through), so I had to put a thick layer of silicone under it. Whatever brand you choose, be sure that it's completely non-leaking before putting it in place. It was a royal pain in the *** to take out my waterfall, since it was completely covered in plants by that time.
These waterfalls holds quite a lot of water. I think (but I'm not sure) that the Exo-terra medium is about the same size as mine, and mine holds approximately 1.5 liters (0.4 gallons). Considering the amount, and that it's a pump in there, it'll probably be fine if you go away for 10 days. Just change the water and clean it well before going away and coming home. You do want to do some regular water changing as well. I change the water within the waterfall 2 times a week, using a simple aquarium hose to siphon the water out, and then refill it. Once in a while, I do a thoroughly cleaning of it. If you keep a good consistent humidity level (which you need to do when dealing with these frogs), the frogs will soak less, since they get more water from the ambient humidity. This results in a less frequently used water bowl/waterfall, which keeps it clean longer. I personally think that a water bowl + a quite large waterfall is quite redundant, since they both serve the same purpose.


3. Precisely. You also want something to get in and out of the water easily, not just to get water bowl.

4. Like I said before, leaf litter is commonly used as a top substrate to keep the frogs clean and neat. It can be purchased at Josh's Frogs - Largest online herps feeders and reptile supplies store, which is one of the websites sponsors.

5. No, a fogger and/or a mister will replace the need to spray by hand. You spray by hand to increase the humidity, but that will be done by the fogger/mister. And no, the pothos don't really need to be hand misted either. Mine thrives with only the help of a ReptiFogger. And I can assure you, that's it much more now than in the pictures in my album, since they are old

6. Lightning is a common question when dealing with red-eyes, so I'll try to explain it to the best of my knowledge. First of all, being purely nocturnal, they do not need any kind of special light (UVA,UVB, full spectrum etc.), but they do need a light-source to create the day/night-cycle they need. This can be done in several ways. I recommend a low wattages CFL, which you'll want on a timer, for a consistent cycle. If you do want to give the plants an extra boost, you can use the Daylight, Full spectrum, 6500K CFL that Wal-marts sells, for example, the key being that they're full spectrum bulbs, and having a good colour temperature.
Red-eyes are, like I said, purely nocturnal, and for most people, they will only wake up when it's completely dark in their enclosure. Some say that a blue light-bulb do not disturb the frogs, but others do, so it's up to the specific frogs if they are disturb by it or not. However, the 25W Night-bulb from Exo-Terra provide nearly no light at all, so it won't help much when trying to look at them. They do however emits a decent amount of heat, being incandescence bulbs.
Keeping the temperature steady can be a bit tricky, but it's OK if it is slightly lower at winter (as long as it's within the required temperature-zone). It's also OK if it drops a few degrees as night (again, follow the requirements), since this is also what happens in their natural habitat. Just make sure it's not fluctuating too much (this applies to humidity levels as well). If you want a heating source, without adding additional light, there are two options. One being ceramic heat bulbs, the other being a side-mounted UTH (Under Tank Heater). Both needs to be on dimmers, in order to adjust the output. Ceramic bulbs is something I don't recommend for this, since they get extremely hot, even at low wattages. If you are planning on getting the Zoo med Thermo/hygrostat, it will take care of both the humidity and heating for you, keeping them at the levels you want.

7. I've never dealt with crickets, so I'm not sure (dubias being much higher in nutrition-value), but a few every day (per frog) should definitely be enough. Like I said before, it's often no problem to add extra feeders, and just let them get eaten the day after. They are not prone to obesity, unlike other tree frogs (like White's). There are a lot of threads with feeding questions, so if you do a quick search, you can probably find a more satisfying answer.


One thing I forgot to mention in my first post:
You do want to condition the water for all water features in the terrarium. There are several conditioners (many are for fish but they work just as well for amphibians) out there and all are good. I personally use Zoo med's.

Also, if you haven't already, check out the care article written by Kurt here on the forum!
http://www.frogforum.net/content/red...allidryas-122/

Lastly, there's no need to create an additional thread just to get attention to this one. Sometime it takes a little more time to get answers, so you have to be patience. It's only been a 7 hours since you last reply here.

[ViperJr]

all right all sounds good.

What size is that terrarium you have there with the pothos in it? Also i'd imagine when it grows alot it's easily trimmed if you want to trim it.

I'm thinking I'm going to make a my own background for this project because I had an awesome idea. Since these are tree frogs, I'm going to try and make a background with a tree's lower half with branches coming out and maybe put a plant pot or two in some of the branches

Every picture in that post is from the same terrarium, which is a small
60x45x60 cm (24x18x24 inches) Exo-Terra. You are correct, the pothos easily trimmed and repositioned, which is alwayd nice.

A DIY-background sounds great. There are a lot of information about it out there, but I personally have no experience with it, unfortunately.

[J Teezy]

With a false floor how high do you typically want to make the PVC supports?

Do you need to worry about maintaining the water level in the bottom under the false floor if you use a pump for a waterfall feature or does the water level stay pretty constant from a mister or fogger?

With a false floor and background is it ok to have the background go down into the bottom where the water sits or do you want the background to stop where the false floor begins.



With a false floor would a proper land setup be something like
Hydroton > plantation soil (to plant in) > leaf litter (to keep the soil off the frog)

[ViperJr]

Do you need to worry about maintaining the water level in the bottom under the false floor if you use a pump for a waterfall feature or does the water level stay pretty constant from a mister or fogger?

I'm sorry, I do not understand what you're asking. The water under the false bottom/drainage layer is just unwanted, excess water from misting/watering the plants etc. This is supposed to be siphon out (or removed somehow). The waterfall (if we're still talking about the commercial available, which we talked about earlier) do not have anything to do with the water outside itself.
I might not be answering your question, but I don't understand what you asking. IF you could elaborate, I might be able to help more

With a false floor and background is it ok to have the background go down into the bottom where the water sits or do you want the background to stop where the false floor begins.

It all depends on what your background is made of.

And yes, Hydroton -> Plantation soil -> leaf litter sounds perfect

[J Teezy]

for the water level i was talking about I was referring to if running a DIY waterfall that would invovle a pump down in the bottom of the tank

If i do a DIY background i'll probably go the styrofoam route using it to make my rock background then covering it with quikcrete or groute and then painting it.


Went to the parents house for dinner tonight and snagged a pothos cutting my mom had

[Katieasaur]

i use a fogger on my 2 RETFs tank and they do fine, but also remember to not keep it too humid in there and that results in more skin and fungal problems, make sure there is good ventilation in the tank