Need help with White's Tree Frog

[momof3]

Hi, I am new to this Forum and I am hoping someone can help me. I am so distraught. Long story...I will try to keep it as short as I can.

Jan. 2nd, I bought my son a White's Tree Frog as a birthday gift (which I would be taking care of) from a small Mom and Pop petshop local to me. I know the woman that works there very well and she assured me that this type of frog was very easy to take care for, and just a pleasure to have. So we brought him home. Set up a regular 10 gallon aquarium with a water bowl, some artifcial trees, a place to hide, a screened in lid with a basking light with a 50 watt basking bulb on one side. We put moss on the bottom and misted it. The temp. in the cage was about 70-73 degrees. From day one, he never ate. Not one cricket. I started using a red bulb in the evening thinking it was getting too cold for him at night. We had him for 10 days before the underside of his belly and legs turned completely red and veiny looking and he died. (I should mention, that while I had him, I went back to this pet store to get crickets, and looked at the cage he came from and there was a very sickly looking frog in there with huge white splotches on him. I told the lady there and she said he was not going to make it and took him out). Anyway...so i went back into the pet store and brought Mike (named after the green Power Ranger) in and showed her and she said it looks like he died of "red leg" and she exchanged him out for another one. And yes, this "new Mike" came from the same tank that she said she had cleaned out...(it looked spotless)...and he was the "last frog standing". So this time... I thought the tank may have been a little chilly so i added an under the tank heater to the side of the tank, since the tank sits on the carpet. Brought the temps up to 78-82 degrees, was trying hard to keep the humidity between 50-60 degrees. Well this little guy refused to eat also, and 4 days later he died also. His underside was also red/veiny looking, but not as bad as the first one. He also had one cloudy looking eye. The reason I explained the habitat so thoroughly is I want to see if there is anything I am doing wrong that could be killing these frogs. Like maybe is the bulb i have sitting on the lid too close since it is not a tall terriarium but actually an aquarium? Our intent is to purchase a taller terrarium type tank, but we just didnt' have the money at the time. I know they are wild caught, and have since read that they tend to be less healthy then captive bred. I really want to get another frog..we just fell in love with the little guys....but I don't want to kill another one! I feel so awful.

Sorry so long winded but I wanted to provide enough detail. I would love some advice

[En333]

U did the right thing putting all the info. I do that in all of my "problem posts". You seemed to have a perfect home the lil guys. For having them for such a short time I can certainly say it wasn't your fault and you tried your best. Im sorry for your loss.

I don't have an answer to what might have happened. Sorry :/ maybe someone else will

Btw welcome to the forum!

[momof3]

Thank you so much for the kind words. The little frog in your picture is precious! I didn't know you could get them so small

[killerecho]

Sorry about your loss. I wish we could welcome you to the forum under better circumstances. From what you described, it sounds like the frogs in that store were so severely afflicted with red leg (or whatever disease they had) that, outside of immediate veterinary help, there was nothing you could have done. You were basically never given a fair chance. Even if your setup and conditions were less than ideal, White's tree frogs are hardy creatures and a healthy one would never deteriorate so quickly.

The sad truth with so many pet stores, Mom and Pop or franchise alike, is that they are often not the best places to purchase "exotics." The conditions that wild caught animals have to endure during collection and import are sometimes deplorable and it is not uncommon for them to be diseased, stressed and frail upon arrival. Even those that manage to make it in decent shape may suffer further neglect or ignorance at the pet store. In your instance, it may just be a single frog that had the disease, but since it was not promptly removed/quarantined/treated, it got passed around to every frog in that tank. I'm only speculating, but just about every pet shop I've been to keeps their small animals in overcrowded, undersized environments that exacerbate, if not foster, disease and stress, which beget one another. Worse, since tree frogs are not exactly a "mainstream" pet, store staff often have no clue what their needs are, let alone recognize signs of ailment. For all these reasons, your best bet at getting a healthy, well adjusted frog is from a specialized, reputable breeder.

If you would like another shot at keeping White's, there's a good caresheet on it right here on this forum: Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea

[tgampper]

Sorry to hear of your loss Unfortunately, frogs purchased at pet shops are not always kept properly and will stress out and eventually die. It is not your fault and you did everything possible to take care of it properly.

One common mistake made by new frog owners is they do not condition the water. Chlorine and other chemicals in tap water are harmful to your pets. Always condition your tap water - I've used Stress Coat for many years without problems. No need to buy expensive bottled water. Red leg is a common disease caused by bacteria. It is relatively easy to treat if caught early. When purchasing frogs, look them over carefully. Make sure they are alert, when you touch them, they react. If there are any unusual blemishes on the frog skin, do not buy it. Avoid animals that look obese. Newly purchased frogs are stressed, keep the frog in a quiet environment for a while until it calms down and feeding properly.

Check out Kurt's White's tree frog care sheet: Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea

Hang in there, frogs are wonderful!

[momof3]

Thank you so much for your replies. I was using a water conditioner that I bought...can't remember the brand, off-hand. Are there any aspects of the cage that i described that are obvious "no-no's" that I may be overlooking? I actually had read the care sheet earlier...lots of good information.

[tgampper]

I can't think of anything. Now you need some healthy frogs

[momof3]

Now I don't know where to get them from... lol I am suspicious of everyone advertising them! I have seen some places online that sell captive bred White's babies, but how do you know if they are reputable? And are "babies" harder to care for then adult sized?

[mommyof4froglovers]

I got mine at petco and a local petstore. I know petco and petsmart do not use captive bred frogs, but you should still check the frogs and make sure they look healthy. You wont know till you take them home though. Make sure they are active when touched, They shouldnt have discoloration on thier undersides and thier eyes should be clear. If there is anything else you should look for hopefully someone with tell you. I got my daughter her first frog almost a year ago and now we have several.

[En333]

Thank you so much for the kind words. The little frog in your picture is precious! I didn't know you could get them so small

Thanks that was my frog Kirby. I got him in August and he died last week :'( I was really devastated... I still don't know what happened to him tho....

He was the cutest, awesomest, ninja frog ever.

[DonLisk]

Hi Momof3,
So sorry you had such a bad experience with your first experience in keeping these great creatures.

Might i suggest you wait a few weeks and lets get your tank ready for them. Post a pic and we'll make some suggestions for making a safe and easier to care for housing to start.


Whites Tree Frogs have the biggest smile :-)
They are aggressive eaters and love to soak at night and climb all over the tank trashing plants and dirtying the glass :-)
Is dirtying really a word? passed spell check

I am going to suggest right off to drop the moss, especially if it is sphagnum moss. Since WTFs are aggressive eaters, it has been common here to have someone with an impacted frog that swallowed the moss. Small stones and such should also be avoided since they are not the most graceful when diving at a cricket and anything that hits their mouth is probably going to get swallowed.

Your tank temps should be around 68-70 degrees at night and between 76 to 78 in the day.
Your right on on the 50-60 percent humidity and for your water, which should be changed daily, use tap or spring water and treat it as stated above with a declorinator. These products remove the chlorine pretty much immediately.

Have a water dish that the frog can soak in but not be completely submerged when sitting.

As for buying another online, if you make a choice, post here and ask before ordering, someone may have already done business with them.
There is a reptiles show coming up and here is the info for it: Feb. 11 Harve De Grace, MD
All Maryland Reptile Show, Community Center 100 Largaret Lane Info: Diamondback Productions 717-432-5807

[killerecho]

For an adult White's, I would recommend a minimum of 20 gallons. More space is always better, and more vertical space is even more appreciated. Their preferred temperature range is 75-85 F, but can tolerate drops into the 60's and spikes into the 90's briefly. Unless your home is always below 75, I would recommend against using a heat bulb; first because there are better alternatives and more importantly because they are VERY hot and unless monitored carefully, there's a chance you can burn the animal. Lastly, they can have a drying effect on the environment which is not appreciated by the frog. A much safer source would be a heating pad or mat. Keep in mind that a regular fluorescent light emits some warmth of its own.

I don't know at the moment where to find captive bred White's. The best way to find out if a vendor is reputable is under the testimonial section in forums like this one. You may also want to visit a reptile show in your area. Send me a personal message if you need more specifics.

Additionally, there are a few visual clues you can look for in a healthy frog such as plumpness, clear eyes, moist, supple skin and responsiveness to being picked up (if you can). Skin dryness, discoloration, scarring, wrinkles and looseness are signs of trouble. Another red flag is if the frog is on the ground of the tank rather than perched high up.

Babies are harder to care for in that if something does go wrong, they tend to get ill or stressed more easily. That's just my experience. They also require smaller food items, which may or may not present problems. The upside is you can get away with a smaller enclosure temporarily.

Oh, and if you haven't done so already - disinfect and wash out your old tank that your frogs died in if you plan on using it again. Same goes for every piece of decor inside. If possible, get a new tank and setup entirely. You don't want the possibility of any remnant bacteria or disease agents infecting new inhabitants.

[momof3]

Wow...thank you SO much for such wonderful information I have been doing a lot of reading on this forum, and I was wondering if the "rainforest exo-terra" is a popularly used set up? I was looking at in the store today and it looks really nice. Also, I really didn't know that the moss was not a good idea...what would you suggest to use? Also what is the best source of humidity to keep it consistant?

Sorry for all of the questions...I just REALLY don't want a repeat of the past 2 weeks. I have a pretty heartbroken 5 year old.

And Ian, I am really sorry about the loss of your little guy. What a cutie-pie

[DonLisk]

The Exo-Terra enclosures are really nice and since the rain forest series comes with a background, all the nicer.

My suggestion would be that if you are going to go that route, make it easier to maintain right from the start.

If you want to make something with live plants and less need to change out the substrate so often, below are some suggestions to creating a nice planted home for a Whites tree Frog. Plants help with keeping humidity and create places to sleep, climb, and perch for the frog.

Depending on the size of the Exo-Terra you buy, pick up a bag or two of Hydroballs (clay balls) which goes on the bottom to collect water and help with the waters evaporation. If you use only substrate on the bottom and no drainage layer, the soil will slowly get soaked and begin to smell and rot requiring you change it out more frequently.
On top of that you would put a piece of screen material like that used for replacing the window screens in your home. A roll costs about 5 bucks max and is available at Home Depot, Lowes, and even Walmart I believe.
On top of the screen is where you would place either Eco-Earth coco fiber or Plantation Soil which can be obtained at most god pet stores.

The hydroball layer should be about 1 to 1 1/2 inches deep, the coco fiber or plantation soil about 1 to 1 1/2 inches deep.
Don't forget the screen between so the two don't mix.

From there is all your imagination. I like to use Bromeliads and Snake plant since both as very hardy in a terrarium. You can plant both right into the substrate. Just wash them down well to remove any fertilized soil and to remove the chance of any unwanted insects that may be laying dormant in the plant.
I also like to use a large piece of wood to make a place for the frog to perch and climb on.
Fake branches or thick fake vines offered at pet stores make good accents too.

For lighting the enclosure, the matching hood top works great and using some light bulbs from Walmart will suffice for providing adquited lighting for both the frog and plants. The bulbs are by Reveal and are Compact Florescent bulbs. They are labeled Daylight and have 6500K color temperature/spectrum. Walmart.com: GE Energy Smart CFL Daylight Light Bulb: 26 Watt (100W Equivalent): Decor

If the hood has a place for two bulbs and switches for each bulb, then adding a night light or red or moon light would have with adding some heat and night lighting, although for the first few week you should refrain from using night lights with the frog to help them adjust to the new home.

Here is a link to a build I did for my Whites Tree Frogs and the major change is you should use the hydroballs instead of the eggcrate bottom for ease of setup. Unless you really want to go that route. I did due to excess water build up and ease of draining it off.
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...se-bottom.html

[momof3]

Don, thank you SO much for information. That gives me a great place to start. I think I am going to work on getting the exoterra terrarium in the next couple of weeks and then attend that Reptile Show in February. Are White's tree frogs a "staple" at these shows, or is it sort-of hit or miss?

[DonLisk]

You should be able to find a nice captive bred one there. you might even all some of the listed vendors ahead of time to see what they will have or pre order one.

While your at the show also look at leaf liter since it makes a great accent to put on top of any substrate to let the frog walk around on and stay clean. Substrate sticks to them pretty easily so the leaf liter works wonders.

[momof3]

The leaf litter sounds like a very cool idea, thanks again.