Is something wrong with my skinny White's?

[Kristen87]

Hi Guys,

I've had my 2 white's tree frogs now for around 3 weeks. One of them - Miss Turtle - looks really thin to me, she has bones sticking out on her back that I haven't seen in any pics of other white's. She's been this way since I got her. I've attached a pic at the bottom of this post, I've got more but I can't access them from work. Her tummy does bloat up sometimes like when she eats but its soft, not hard. The substrate is big pebbles with coco bark underneath it so I don't think she could have impactation or anything.

I feed her in a separate container so that I can make sure she is eating, every second day I'll feed her 4 to 6 wood roaches (depending on their size, they are all the size between her eyes or smaller though), and one I will coat heavily with calcium and vitamin suppliment and hand feed with tweezers. I've noticed that she is pretty useless when it comes to catching her food, at first I thought it was normal but my other white's - Ninja - has no trouble at all. Miss Turtle lunges at her food but misses about 75% of the time even when the roach is in front of her face and not moving. Even when I hold a roach in front of her mouth she will try and grab it in her mouth and will miss it about ten times before she can finally eat it, again even though it isn't moving.

I've been reading up on it and I read somewhere that if a frog is starved (which probably would have happened to poor Miss Turtle before I took her because the pet shop don't hand feed their frogs and she wouldn't have had a chance competing for food against the other frogs) it can get diseases and become so weak that it can't catch its food. She doesn't so much seem weak... she is fairly active at night, which actually brings up another bit of a concern... While she's fairly active jumping around, she often doesn't make her mark and falls. Also she will try to climb up the glass but will fall which I thought was normal until Ninja started climbing all over the glass without a problem. It doesn't seem to bother her, she keeps jumping around but it just seems strange that a tree frog can't climb trees.

She doesn't apear to be sick, she only occasionally goes for a swim, she sleeps in the same area each day perched in a tree, she's active, she has a good appetite and eats healthily (even if it takes her a long time)... Is there something more I can/should be doing about her skinniness? Do you think her bad aim could be to do with an illness even though she seems otherwise healthy? It doesn't look like metabolic bone disease does it? I have a 3 foot UV light over the whole 3ft tank which she sleeps underneath during the day but I don't know what conditions she has come from... She has a water section with a filter which is about 2 foot long by 1 foot wide and half a foot (15cm) deep with plenty of logs and plants to help her get out of which is heated to around 30 degrees. I get her water from my fish tank so the water is already treated and cycled and I do partial water changes about once every 1 to 2 weeks.

A friend suggested that maybe she is partly blind, but I can see her spot the roaches from the corner of her eye when I'm feeding her and she watches them like a hawk. Is it possible that its just a behavioural issue, like maybe she's a little bit dumb or has been raised in a different environment than what I have her in now?

Any responses are much appreciated, I just want to make sure I'm doing everything right by her and that I'm not missing something.



Edit: sorry about picture quality and lack of rotation, its from my iphone and I can't edit it at work. Hope its clear enough.

[DonLisk]

I don't know if this is something that is possibly intestinal or behavior feeding issues.
I'm hoping Kurt sees this post since he may have some insight into whats going on here.

Have you had a fecal exam done on her droppings? Might help in determining if this is due to some parasite or infection internally.

[flybyferns]

Kristen,

"I get her water from my fish tank so the water is already treated and cycled and I do partial water changes about once every 1 to 2 weeks."

I'm wondering if water from the fish tank could cause a problem? Algae, parasites?
Let's see what others think.

Lynn

[Kristen87]

Kristen,

"I get her water from my fish tank so the water is already treated and cycled and I do partial water changes about once every 1 to 2 weeks."

I'm wondering if water from the fish tank could cause a problem? Algae, parasites?
Let's see what others think.

Lynn

I hadn't thought of that, thanks! Would be interested to see if anyone agrees... There's no algae problem in the fish tank and the fish are all store bought and water changed regularly and treated. She was like this when I got her so I don't think the problem has come from my tank but if getting the water from the fish tank might cause other problems then it would be good to know.

Don, no I haven't had a fecal exam yet. I wanted to see if people would think a vet trip was necesary first since she seems healthy (in my new-frog-owner opinion)other than looking skinny and having bad aim. If she just needs a bit more fattening up and some practice climbing then that would be great, but if it seems like there may actually be something wrong and need a vet check then I'll do that.

[Mentat]

IRT using tank water; it the bio-filter is working properly and you are doing water changes, only thing there should be metabolites like nitrates. Some fish medications can bond themselves to gravel, decor, etc. and then leach out slowly until gone. If you ever treated fish in that tank; that is something to think about and check if it's bad for frogs. I use my aquariums conditioner (Seachem's Vitro "Alpha") to treat tap water for frogs and give them fresh instead of tank water just to be safe.

[Kristen87]

IRT using tank water; it the bio-filter is working properly and you are doing water changes, only thing there should be metabolites like nitrates. Some fish medications can bond themselves to gravel, decor, etc. and then leach out slowly until gone. If you ever treated fish in that tank; that is something to think about and check if it's bad for frogs. I use my aquariums conditioner (Seachem's Vitro "Alpha") to treat tap water for frogs and give them fresh instead of tank water just to be safe.

Ok thanks, that's a relief... The water should be fine then. I've never needed to treat my fish, I use Prime and I check ammonia, pH, nitrites and nitrates regularly. Occasionally there's a slight amount of nitrates but usually its all at 0 (I have a lot of live plants in there) with pH slightly alkaline. No copper shows up in testing either.

[GrifTheGreat]

I would definetly stop using water that another animal is swimming in and deficates in. Even though its filtered there could be microbes that make it past the filtration system. She could have worms, but I'm no expert. You can see worms in their poop when you break it apart. They will be small and off white and about 1/4 to 1/6 of an inch in length. Hard to spot without a fecal exam or them being seriously infected withthem. Tape worms are another possibility. Also difficult to diagnose without a fecal exam or a vet to test for one. Segments of the tape worm will be in the fecies and also eggs they can seriouly do a lot of harm once they reach a large size. Fish also can carry worms so that's another reason why I would not use their water.

[Kristen87]

I would definetly stop using water that another animal is swimming in and deficates in. Even though its filtered there could be microbes that make it past the filtration system. She could have worms, but I'm no expert. You can see worms in their poop when you break it apart. They will be small and off white and about 1/4 to 1/6 of an inch in length. Hard to spot without a fecal exam or them being seriously infected withthem. Tape worms are another possibility. Also difficult to diagnose without a fecal exam or a vet to test for one. Segments of the tape worm will be in the fecies and also eggs they can seriouly do a lot of harm once they reach a large size. Fish also can carry worms so that's another reason why I would not use their water.

Ok thanks, I didn't realize fish could carry worms that could affect the frogs. It was actually more work getting the water from the fish tank anyway (I felt like it would be safer using pre-cycled pre-filtered water) so using treated tap-water instead will be no problem. I'll take a look at the poop. What are the symptoms of worms? Just being skinny even though eating habits appear normal or are there other things I could look out for? What is the treatment for worms?

[Kurt]

The treatment is fenbendazole aka Panacur. You will need to see a vet for this.

I have yet to read this thread and right now I am dead tired, so let me read it tomorrow and get back to you on this sometime.

[S13]

Rotated her around for ya.

She does look really skinny though compared to other White's I have seen.

[Kurt]

Mine often look like this and at first I was concerned, but after I feed them they fatten up, only to return to this state a few days later. It may be something or it may be nothing at all. If you are really concerned have a vet check it out. Remember to bring a fresh fecal sample with you, nothing more than 24 hours old. Also, bring both frogs too, and if the vet finds something, both frogs should be treated, since they live together.

[BeckyM]

I don't have a White's... but I do know some frogs get super skinny when they pee out the water they soak up. She looks a tad dry to me. Do you mist her?

[Kristen87]

I don't have a White's... but I do know some frogs get super skinny when they pee out the water they soak up. She looks a tad dry to me. Do you mist her?

You might be right with that!! I do notice its not just after she eats that she plumps up but she also seems a lot fatter when she goes for a dip. I have 36 litres of water in there with a waterfall they sit on top of every now and then that I thought would raise the humidity enough, but maybe not... I built up on the tank to make it higher for them but made it out of fly screen mesh for ventilation which might have been a noobie mistake since it would be letting out the humidity... I've actually just ordered a mist machine off ebay so will see if maybe that helps, and am in the process of making a huge 6 foot (had the space so thought - why not? haha) rainforest type enclosure that I'll aim to keep a more humid environment for them. Asides from being skinny she's the same as my other white's - if not more active and she has a good appetite so I'll see how she goes with raised humidity.

Thanks Omar for the rotation hehe Come to think of it looking at that pic - I'm pretty sure her bones don't stick out that much anymore!! Could be partly humidity problem and partly her incompetence to catch food on her own, was probably starving at the pet shop