Frogs - Corneal Lipidosis

[Peachy]

Just thought this would be an interesting article for those unaware of corneal lipidosis and also discusses obesity, overfeeding,gut-loading, varied diets, etc. Seemed pretty intriguing to me. =]

Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital

How can everyone compare this information to the methods you guys use as far as feeding your frogs? Would anyone change their frog's feeding schedule (quantity vs. quality vs. time between meals) or do your methods currently work for you?

[GrifTheGreat]

That was a very interesting article. I did not know of this disease and it seems that it mainly affects tree frogs. I do know that heat is how they metabolize food and fats which is part of the reason I use higher temps for my Pacman frogs. Adults would need higher temps to metabolize food and fats since they now grow at a much slower rate and therefore do not use as much energy for growth. Most fats would be stored instead of used. Also when feeding animals as well as ourselves our bodies react to the amount of food available. If food is scarce then the body will try to store as much as possible between meals so that it has something to burn for energy. That being said (and this may depend on species or each individual frog) then when food is widely available the frog may not store as much fats and therefore not become obese, but that would also depend on care given and environmental states within the enclosure I would assume.

I believe what is said about gutloading with fatening food for our feeders would cause a problem. That's like packing a doughnut which is already fattening and stuffing it with custard. More fat added plus sugar which equals fat storage. Now about each individual frog being affected by this disease it may not be the case that all will become affected. Like us I believe that each frog has its own metabolism which is why some grow faster than others even though they could be the same age as well as given the exact amount of food and supplementation. Genders aside as a lot of females grow faster than males. I believe that is due to survival of the species. So if food is readily available the frogs body may not store tthe fat because it can easily aquire a meal, but this is just my theory. Humans do the same although warm blooded. Some are more prone to the disease of obesity more than others and metabolism has a lot to do with that as well as inactivity and diet. Some can't help it like those with diabetes and hyperthyroidism which in both cases there are 2 types of and neither better than the other. Inactivity is also a major factor.

I'm probably just ranting a little, but I don't believe that this is all due to what we feed our feeders and what the frog eats. Like was said in the article about not having the higher tempreture levels I do belive to be a major factor because most of us believe that we will kill our frogs which is possible if not monitored. I think the higher temps should be given to the under our supervision for periods of time to allow for natural fat burning and provide a better appetite. It may also help with other bodily functions that we may not be aware of. Just my opinion. Great article you found Peachy!

[JeffreH]

All reptiles and amphibians metabolize fat and other organic macromolecules differently; which is why the species in question are more prone to the disease...just as Boas are significantly more prone to overfeeding and developing fatty liver diease compared to a Ball Python who knows to stop eating when it doesn't need it. Same for bearded dragons (also incredibly prone to fatty liver disease) compared to a Leopard gecko, who is capable of storing adipose tissue in the tail and subcutaneous more raedily than around internal organs.

I'm skeptical about the idea of gutloading being bad - I feel the issue is the species of insect itself. Allow me to elaborate... something else to consider that drives me absolutely crazy is how narrow the nutrional basis for feeder insects is. All we have is a chart that says a % of moisture, fat, ash, protein, carbs.... thats generally it. What this doesn't tell you is the actual calories derived from each source, and the specific kinds of macromolecules in play.

Fats: We all know that unsaturated fats are better than saturated fats... everyone needs to consume fat and so do herps. But for us, getting our daily value via olive oil is substantially better than consuming it from a stick of butter (and the prior can actually lower the LDL "bad" cholestrerol in our body).

Silkworms contain an enzyme called serrapeptase that is known in humans to reduce arterial plaque residue (amongst other benefits). Whether or not this applies to amphibians and reptiles we are unsure, but can only hope. Furthermore, the silkworm is an incredibly lean meal. Not only are they naturally high in moisture and protein, but they are high in calcium and low in BAD fat content...and their diet is composed entirely of mulberry. Its impossible to feed an un-gutloading silkworm if you are caring for them properly, they literally feed constantly in the larval stages of their life, but mulberry is an excellent leaf variety to consume (having nutritional benefits of its own).

I invite everyone to read this passage from an article written by Cheri Smith at ReptileRooms.com, I think it will aid in understanding of feeder nutritional composition:

--"In assessing all the current insects feeders, silkworms have the lowest % of calories from fats of any of them, the highest % of calories from protein. Looking at waxworms they have almost 4 times the % of calories from fats as silkworms... huge difference. It's not just the overall nutritional contents that is important, it's the types (fats or proteins) and % of calories from them

Silkworms are an ideal feeder insect for not only growing babies (due to the % of fats from protein), but also otherwise healthy animals and specifically they are the BEST feeder for recovering, injured, sick or older bearded dragons due to the enzyme serapeptase in them. I know this as I spent the past 2 years studying this and the effect of this enzyme on a severely injured bearded dragon and have related this enzyme to beneficial effects on them due to the serapeptase. No animal can last long without negative side effects on steroids or antiflammatories and we were looking for a more natural food source to help him and not due damaging side effects, but still give him good nutrition and pain relief. Silkworms with the enzyme serapeptase is a natural anti-flammatory and pain reliever, better than many drugs available and without the poor side effects of some.

This is beside the point on the question if silkworm are too high in fat, but wanted to explain how I know what the content and interaction facts are and why I was seeking the answers. Some other interesting facts about feeders from the studies:

2 week old crickets have a higher calorie content from protein than 5 week old crickets or adults. So another good reason to make sure babies are not eating crickets too large for them or to keep them on the smaller size. Yet its adult mealworms that have a higher % of calories from protein then the young mealworms or 1/2 grown ones. Again, another good reason to avoid mealworms, even small one for young dragons, the calories are higher in fats

Just looking at calories processed from fats here is how they fall: waxworms are the highest, the next closest are tied between superworms and giant mealworms, then close (very close) come young mealworms, next is adult crickets, then adult mealworms, then young crickets and last is silkworms

Now, on top of this above, you have to consider not only the fats from calories as mentioned above, but how other things in food, interact with that fat absorption. I will try to explains this briefly so it is easy to understand. EXAMPLE: Most know high oxalate foods can bind with Calcium and even if the animal is eating high calcium food, they are not getting much if any calcium since the oxalates are binding it and the animal can not absorb it (this is why you should avoid Spinach as a green for lizards). The same thing happens with fats in superworms and mealworms due to the chitin in them. The chitin binds with the fats and blocks the absorption of some of the fats. So even if the reptile is eating a higher fat food, they may actually be taking in and using less fat
than a lower fat content food." - Cheri Smith

[JeffreH]

I wanted to break this up slightly being a borderline novel, heh. Also...I'm having difficulty where to find the emoticons and ability to bold/italize, etc...

Anyway: Gutloading.

The problem with most commercial gutloads on the market is they contain fillers. I'd assume the vast majority of you, being research and forum junkies like myself, understand that there are brands of dog and cat food than are better than others. Naturally, the brands that contain no filler product or other BS in the first few ingrediants are better than those that do. The same can be said for gutloads.

Most of the pet store products sold (Flukers, etc) contain junk. A lot of sources also sell gutloads loaded with calcium and other things in it that can affect some insect's ability to properly molt. The sad fact is, crickets and some other feeders are phosphorus cravers... while phosphorus is a necessary mineral in the body its frequently recommended to feed herps at least a 2:1 ratio of Ca:P in the diet because high levels of phosphorus can actually block calcium conversation. We often compensate for the insect's naturally high Phosphorus content with dusting supplements.

If you feed a quality gutload; one that contains quality ingrediants and a variety of plant matter as a moisture source (not junk lettuce that is 99.9% water, I'm talking about greens and good vegetables, fruits) you can drastically increase the nutritional potential of a feeder. Will it make them fattier? Maybe a litte, but its a lot better IMO than feeding a primarily chitanous exoskeleton and a minute amount of internal meat content.

The problem is most likely overfeeding, and feeding poor feeders. I feel variety is the best option for any herp, so providing as much variety as possible can help to alleivate problems... but the staple insects should be those that are the leanest. Silkworms for example, or roaches. Crickets are good too (particually younger ones). Mealworms and waxworms should be rare treats.

A lot of keepers have difficulty relating to herps only eating small amounts of food every couple of days - but this is how they work. I feel Corneal Lipidosis is one of those diseases that results more from overfeeding, and feeding of primarily fatty foods than anything else. Kick the pinkies out of the diet, watch the waxowrm consumption, and feed sparingly. Too many people powerfeed their herps nowadays, and while its hard to not want to spoil our loved ones, we have to remember what is best for them. While some people feed their Boas weekly, I feed adults every 2 weeks. Bearded dragons should be fed almost entirely a vegetarian diet upon entering adulthood, yet if I had a dollar for every person than feeds them pinkies and insects at a rate that a juvie would eat I'd be wealthy...and these animals die far too young. We need to remember that the metabolsm of an ectotherm is an amazing thing, and they have evolved to not eat constantly. If you can provide the proper environment, temperature etc and are feeding quality feeders at a reasonable rate, I think this disease is easily prevented.