m klappenbacki and n. viridesvens

[rivkah]

Hi,

I have a well planted 30g terrarium, complete with shallow pond, currently housing 4 red efts (notophthalmus viridescens), who are doing very well feeding on fruit flies. In a 10g, again nicly planted, with shallow pond, I have 3 bumblebee toads (melanphryniscus klappenbacki), also doing well feeding on fruit flies. I would like to consolidate them all into the 30g. Does any one know why I can not or should not house the red efts and bumbee toads together in the 30g?
Thank you

[mdtalley22]

Just search for mixed tank and I am sure you will come up with quite a few post on why mixed tanks are not a good idea. It has been talked on many times in the past.

[rivkah]

Mike, thank you for your response.

I have looked through the stories of failed mixed tanks... and I am well aware of some of the issues, which include: wrong habitates, size differences, as well as aggressive differences. Being a life long fish keeper I take all these into account when I think about mixed tanks. Years ago, I made the mistake of putting bumblebee gobies (yes, I know that they are brackish, and aggressive) with neons temporarily. Since both were the same size, and it was short term (for about a week) while I was making some adjustments. I thought nothing of it until.... I saw a bumblee goby swallow a neon. WOW! Slient aggression can be even worst... intimidating a fish until it dies.

That being said, repts don't live in a vacuume in nature and there are successful mixed tank combinations. In Philippe de Vosjoli's book "popular amphibians" he lists a few successful combinations (pg 106). Basically if the animals share a similar/same habitate requiremens,and are of similar size, and of course (in my opinion), if there is adquate space. (just as a side note: I think that the housing suggestions at the back of this book are way too small for the population suggestions).

I should also say, that I do tend to underpopular a container to ensure more that adequate space for the inhabitants, usually going
1 1/2 to 2 times the recommended size requirements per animal.

Since I have had the red efts for over 9 months and the bumblees for almost 5, I know that each are healthy and feeding well. In fact a couple of the efts are beginning to show their adult colors ( I have already set up a semi aquatic vivarium for them when they are ready). I watch for sign of aggression or bulling (old habits die hard), and have seen none in either population. Since neither appears overly predatory (such as with paddletail newts or pac man frogs) and being of the same size and housing requirements with enough space (30g heavily planted, with many hiding places, including clay caves from Evan Rosenthal), to house seven, one to two inch animals still seems workable.

So again, I respectfully ask: is there a temperment issue that I may not be aware of? being non-aquatic, would the toxcity of each still be an issue?, since the efts are mostly nocturnal and the bumblees being diurnal, what affect would have have on each?

Thank you in advance for your kind paitence with my inquiries.

Rivkah

[frogged]

"That being said, repts don't live in a vacuume in nature and there are successful mixed tank combinations."

I don't know why this argument keeps being repeated, any responsible would indicate that, being in an ecosystem, immediate contact with one another usually results in predation. The proximity with amphibians in the wild with that in captivity is of much difference.

There are successful mixed tank combinations. However, what apparently seems like a lack of aggression, may actually amount of an unapparent build up of stress. Your set-up may work. With regards to toxicity, definitely as soon as one media comes into contact with the other. I will quote caudata culture's study in saying, "When discussing the results of their findings they said, “All species of newts tested had toxic skin… . The symptoms were typical of tetrodotoxin…. The [adult N. viridescens] were less toxic than the efts… both C. pyrrhogaster and P. hongkongensis were about ten times as toxic as adult N. viridescens or about as toxic as the juvenile eft stage.”


Notophthalmus viridescens also ends up to be primarily aquatic, do note.

[rivkah]

First I want to thank you for your response to my inquiry.

But please re-read it ("n. viridescens also ends up to be primarily aquatic, do note.") as can be seen for my previous post, I did say that I already set up an vivarium/aquatic housing for when the red efts mature into eastern spotted newts, as some are begining to do. I suppose I should also have mentioned that I have bred eastern spotted newts (as well as fire belly newts and firebelly toads), with a sucessful outcome raising approximately 60-70% (over 125) to adulthood, so I am well aware of their housing needs throughout their entire cycle. (as a side note: I raised the n. viridescrens tadpoles in a large wading pool, used another one made into a patch of "forest", complete with spingtails, worms, pill bugs, etc., under those condition (lighting, warnth and excess food stuffs), the red efts matured into eastern spotteds in about two years), too labor intensive for me to ever want to breed/raise n. viridescens again).

I have keep sucessful combinations previously, such as anoles and firebelly toads, similar environments but different niches within that environment. I believe it is one of the requirements for keeping mixed poputations: similar environment requirments, but occuping different niches within that environment. Of course, also taking into consideration other things like size and food items.

Again, I want to add, that I tend to grossly under populate any enclosure and try to create as "natural" environment as can be done in a glass box. This reduces any stresses that maybe caused from being kept in captivity, and brings out more natural behaviors of the creatures. Using this philosophy (understanding?) I have been rewarded with happy, healthy, breeding fish/creatures for almost 50 years.

After posting my initial question, and continuing to watch each population, I have found my own answer. The bumblebee toads are much more agressive feeders that the red efts, and therefore, I believe, would out complete the red efts for food stuffs. With all things being equal, for this reason alone, I have not and will not combine the two (2) populations.

I appreciation the reseach you did citing the toxicty of newts. A good reason not to lick, kiss, or eat our pets... a joke, maybe not a good one.

Thank you again for your response.

[frogged]

Alright that's fine. I was just wondering how you would be able to keep full grown viridescens in a decently large water body, whilst still providing sufficient land for the firebellies and ensuring that they don't drown, in a 30 gallon. Sort of a strange distribution. Aye, we need large tanks for mixed vivariums.

[rivkah]

If I understand your questions:

I have not keep eastern spotted newts with fire belly toads. Although the housing requirement are similar, each doing well in 5-6 inches of water, I find the newts are too "shy" around the boisterous toads.

I kept firebelly toads (2) with anoles (2) in a 50g terrarium setup, complete with waterfall and "pond". Both naturally live in a similar environment, but occupy different niches within that environment. I put the two together because once the crickets made it onto the plants the toads could not get to them, so I needed somethink higher in the tank to eat the crickets that escaped the toads. Also in this set up I have a few guppies. The "pond" was about 4-5 inches deep and planted. I use cork flats to separate the "land" from the water areas, and run the cork the entire length of the tank, in the case of the 50 gallon breeder tank (36Lx18Dx16H) the division ran the 36" length. I wish I had pictures of this set up. I still have it, but now it is being used as a fish tank... the cork in actually still in place and the back of it is filled in causing a wonderful terrace affect in the tank.

I have seen firebelly toads kept in "dry" tanks with only a bowl of water. But my experince has been that the toads appear to perfer as much water as they can be given and appear to "enjoy" swimming. With the combination (toads, anoles and guppies) the only issue that I dealt with was that one of the anoles would dive into the water to catch a guppy and eat it. He only went after the red tailed guppies leaving the blue tailed ones alone. I liked the anoles more that I liked the guppies so I did not actually care. I eventually end up with only blue tailed guppies. Never before had I seen or even heard of an anole doing that... I even had other people see it in action to try to find some sort of explaination for his behavior. We came up with not a clue as to why he wanted fish or why he only went for the red tailed ones.

When I kept viridenscens (mature eastern spotteds) in the past I started with only three (3), which turned out to be one male, two females. They were set up in a 15g tank with 1/4 - 1/3 covered by a "floating island", which I made from a shallow plastic bowl filled with soil, heavily planted, and supported from benenth to keep the lip about at the water level, and also secured to a side of the tank. In this tank the newts bred. I moved the eggs to another tank. I did not expect that many to hatch so I felt forced to move them into a baby wading pool, as they morphed into red efts I moved them into a second wading pool made into a forest floor. I built a "lip" or hang-over of anout 4-5 inches the rim of the wading pool with window screening to make sure that the red efts did not climb out of the pool. As they began to mature into eastern spotted, I sold or gave away around 50, the remainder, I released into a deeply wooded area where I had once seen some -- they are native to PA.

I am currently houseing 6 red efts in a well planted 30g terrarium. In this are only shallow bowls of water, which currently they do not use. Also, currently I am keeping 3 fire belly newts in a 35hex tank, and the bumblebee toads are in a seperate planted 15g terrarium. Please see pictures.






These pictures were each taken within a week of their construction. Now, months later, there has been a great deal of plant growth. And I should add with the hex tank... the water level is higher, and the little plastic frog has been removed. I don't yet have pictures of the bumblebee tank, but is currently is too overgrown and I am in the process of creating another tank for them.

I hope that my explainations as well as the pictures help to to convey what I do and how I do it. Again, grossly under populate, and I try to make the glass box as interesting as possible for the inhabitants.

As always, I do welcome your input.

[Niels D]

I'm keeping N.v.viridescens and M.klappenbachi. I'm breeding Easterns as well. I guess it should be possible to keep them in one enclosure, but you'll need to figure out how you can manage to keep the Easterns below 20 degrees Celsius, because both species need different temperatures. That means a big tank. I would never recommend mixing species though.

[rivkah]

One thing that I think gets forgotten when housing our charges is that they naturally live in a range of temperatures. And for most there is an overlap of temperature range. It is one of the many considerations, along with humidity level (again a range) when considering whether or not to set up an enclosure with a mixed population.

Most of my tanks (be them for fish or the repts) are in my fish room, in none of them do I use heaters. Although my house temp runs around 72 during the day and I drop it to 69 overnight, the fish room generally hoovers around 74-76 during the day, dropping to 70 overnight. The difference in temperature in that room is due to the lighting, humidity, and by sunlight coming through a particular window heating that small room. Those of my creatures that perfer a higher temperature are placed on the higher shelves (heat rises), and those requireing lower temperatures and placed on lower shelves. There can be as much as a 5 degree (f) difference between a top shelf and the lowest shelf.

I learned years ago to use the "micro-climates" that are throughout any given house (or apartment), such as corners that tend to be cooler that the room itself because of less air flow. It is surprising just how much fluctuation or variation of temperature there is within a house or even within a room.

We also create "micro-climates" within an enclosure with the placing of under tank heaters, lighting, heat lamps, screen covers, or glass covers,even water features change the immediate area around it. And yes... the larger the enclosure the more "mirco-climates" that can be created thus allowing the creature to decide for itself what its needs might be at any particular moment.

I kept anoles with fire belly toads together for several years. Both have similar housing requirements, but live in different niches of that environment, the toads using a horizontal plane, whereas the anoles occupy the vertical. Both m. klappenbacki and n. viridenscens occupy the same niche in a similar environment, both living on the horizontal plane, with the m. klappenbacki being more agressive feeders, who would out compete the n. viridenscens.

Only with a great deal of research and understanding of a creatures individual needs can informed and intelligent decisions be made as to housing a species let alone mixed populations. The animal did not make the decision to live with us, we made that chose, therefore we are obligated to provide for the needs of that animal.

[Niels D]

One thing that I think gets forgotten when housing our charges is that they naturally live in a range of temperatures.

Newts and salamanders living in the wild have access to caves, holes in the ground and cool (running) water when temperatures get too high. This isn't possible in an avarage tank.

[rivkah]

There are many ways to keep the temperature down if that is you goal...

The first and probably the easiest and most common is to keep newts that require the cooler temperaures in the basement. This is generally very useful for the winter cooling period. I have read that one should put newts in the refrigerator for the winter cooling period... I can not bring my self to do that.

There are also chillers available. By cooling the water, would bring down the temperature in the entire enclosure.

As can be seen from the picutres of my 35g hex tank... it has running water, which is cooler by its nature than standing water. On the other side of the cork flats is soil in which the newts can dig. What is not seem in the pictures is that behind the cork flats in approximately 6-7 inches deep of hydroballs, then window screening to separate the hydroballs from soil. The soil is 3.5-4.5 inches deep, damp but not wet and soft enough for the newts to dig into, there is a space (cavern) under the "creek" which is made from one piece of lace rock and a couple of clay fired "caves". The tank sits on a stand that is only 15inches off of the floor of my fish room and on an outside wall, and I am using only a 20w florenent tube to light it. I have done everything, short of getting a chiller (I have no basement) to keep the temperatures lower.

I have taken temperature reading at various spots within this particular enclosure and at various times and found: the water in the "pond' hovers between 69-71 (f), the space under the "creek" hovers around 66-68, the clay fired caves: 70, 2 inches deep in the soil is about 67-68. This hex tank is 17"x17"x24"H. The little water pump does generate heat, but evaporation causes cooling.(evaporation off of a rock is cooler still) I took all these readings before deciding on what would live in this tank. If I wanted tree frogs, with everything else being the same, I would have had to add heating of some sort and/or move the set up to a higher stand, say 36inches off the floor and next to an interior wall, all the temperatures would then adjust upwards. Newts are the perfect fit within the temperature ranges caused by the placement of the tank.

There are two schools of thought... decide what you want to keep, research, research, research then built the best enclosure possible for that creature. Or build an enclosure that you like... then research, research, research what can realistically live in it. I have done both at one time or another.

I want to say that I believe that there is no one right way, of course, there are alot of wrongs ways to keep "pets". My days of wanting to breed are long gone and I am not what I would call a "collector". Although I do not agree with the practice, I know "collectors" that keep their charges in small plastic boxes in a rack system. I also know breeders that do the same and are still sucessful.

I should probably say that I have been a fish keeper for almost 50 years and have gone full circle back to low tech. I have "experimented" with the "new" technology that seems to show up every couple of years. And have found that the technology oftentimes seems to interfer with the enjoyment of the keeper and well as the kept. Sometimes the easiest way is the best.