m klappenbacki and n. viridesvens

[rivkah]

Hi,

I have a well planted 30g terrarium, complete with shallow pond, currently housing 4 red efts (notophthalmus viridescens), who are doing very well feeding on fruit flies. In a 10g, again nicly planted, with shallow pond, I have 3 bumblebee toads (melanphryniscus klappenbacki), also doing well feeding on fruit flies. I would like to consolidate them all into the 30g. Does any one know why I can not or should not house the red efts and bumbee toads together in the 30g?
Thank you

[mdtalley22]

Just search for mixed tank and I am sure you will come up with quite a few post on why mixed tanks are not a good idea. It has been talked on many times in the past.

[rivkah]

Mike, thank you for your response.

I have looked through the stories of failed mixed tanks... and I am well aware of some of the issues, which include: wrong habitates, size differences, as well as aggressive differences. Being a life long fish keeper I take all these into account when I think about mixed tanks. Years ago, I made the mistake of putting bumblebee gobies (yes, I know that they are brackish, and aggressive) with neons temporarily. Since both were the same size, and it was short term (for about a week) while I was making some adjustments. I thought nothing of it until.... I saw a bumblee goby swallow a neon. WOW! Slient aggression can be even worst... intimidating a fish until it dies.

That being said, repts don't live in a vacuume in nature and there are successful mixed tank combinations. In Philippe de Vosjoli's book "popular amphibians" he lists a few successful combinations (pg 106). Basically if the animals share a similar/same habitate requiremens,and are of similar size, and of course (in my opinion), if there is adquate space. (just as a side note: I think that the housing suggestions at the back of this book are way too small for the population suggestions).

I should also say, that I do tend to underpopular a container to ensure more that adequate space for the inhabitants, usually going
1 1/2 to 2 times the recommended size requirements per animal.

Since I have had the red efts for over 9 months and the bumblees for almost 5, I know that each are healthy and feeding well. In fact a couple of the efts are beginning to show their adult colors ( I have already set up a semi aquatic vivarium for them when they are ready). I watch for sign of aggression or bulling (old habits die hard), and have seen none in either population. Since neither appears overly predatory (such as with paddletail newts or pac man frogs) and being of the same size and housing requirements with enough space (30g heavily planted, with many hiding places, including clay caves from Evan Rosenthal), to house seven, one to two inch animals still seems workable.

So again, I respectfully ask: is there a temperment issue that I may not be aware of? being non-aquatic, would the toxcity of each still be an issue?, since the efts are mostly nocturnal and the bumblees being diurnal, what affect would have have on each?

Thank you in advance for your kind paitence with my inquiries.

Rivkah

[frogged]

"That being said, repts don't live in a vacuume in nature and there are successful mixed tank combinations."

I don't know why this argument keeps being repeated, any responsible would indicate that, being in an ecosystem, immediate contact with one another usually results in predation. The proximity with amphibians in the wild with that in captivity is of much difference.

There are successful mixed tank combinations. However, what apparently seems like a lack of aggression, may actually amount of an unapparent build up of stress. Your set-up may work. With regards to toxicity, definitely as soon as one media comes into contact with the other. I will quote caudata culture's study in saying, "When discussing the results of their findings they said, “All species of newts tested had toxic skin… . The symptoms were typical of tetrodotoxin…. The [adult N. viridescens] were less toxic than the efts… both C. pyrrhogaster and P. hongkongensis were about ten times as toxic as adult N. viridescens or about as toxic as the juvenile eft stage.”


Notophthalmus viridescens also ends up to be primarily aquatic, do note.

[rivkah]

First I want to thank you for your response to my inquiry.

But please re-read it ("n. viridescens also ends up to be primarily aquatic, do note.") as can be seen for my previous post, I did say that I already set up an vivarium/aquatic housing for when the red efts mature into eastern spotted newts, as some are begining to do. I suppose I should also have mentioned that I have bred eastern spotted newts (as well as fire belly newts and firebelly toads), with a sucessful outcome raising approximately 60-70% (over 125) to adulthood, so I am well aware of their housing needs throughout their entire cycle. (as a side note: I raised the n. viridescrens tadpoles in a large wading pool, used another one made into a patch of "forest", complete with spingtails, worms, pill bugs, etc., under those condition (lighting, warnth and excess food stuffs), the red efts matured into eastern spotteds in about two years), too labor intensive for me to ever want to breed/raise n. viridescens again).

I have keep sucessful combinations previously, such as anoles and firebelly toads, similar environments but different niches within that environment. I believe it is one of the requirements for keeping mixed poputations: similar environment requirments, but occuping different niches within that environment. Of course, also taking into consideration other things like size and food items.

Again, I want to add, that I tend to grossly under populate any enclosure and try to create as "natural" environment as can be done in a glass box. This reduces any stresses that maybe caused from being kept in captivity, and brings out more natural behaviors of the creatures. Using this philosophy (understanding?) I have been rewarded with happy, healthy, breeding fish/creatures for almost 50 years.

After posting my initial question, and continuing to watch each population, I have found my own answer. The bumblebee toads are much more agressive feeders that the red efts, and therefore, I believe, would out complete the red efts for food stuffs. With all things being equal, for this reason alone, I have not and will not combine the two (2) populations.

I appreciation the reseach you did citing the toxicty of newts. A good reason not to lick, kiss, or eat our pets... a joke, maybe not a good one.

Thank you again for your response.

[frogged]

Alright that's fine. I was just wondering how you would be able to keep full grown viridescens in a decently large water body, whilst still providing sufficient land for the firebellies and ensuring that they don't drown, in a 30 gallon. Sort of a strange distribution. Aye, we need large tanks for mixed vivariums.