Help! Firebelly Toad has Cloudy Eye, not responding to treatment

[KayIS]

About 10 days ago, we noticed our 5 year old frog was developing a cloudy left eye. We did some water changes, and then eventually completely cleaned the tank. Nobody else (4 other frogs in the tank) have developed the eye problem. We took him to the vet, who prescribed eye drops of GENTAMICIN SULFATE, to be applied twice daily. It's been 5 days, and the frog's eye is getting cloudier - I think it is far worse. He doesn't like the drops either, and will do backflips to get away from it, which is not usual for him because he loves to be held and doesn't usually behave like this.

He is still eating, and still very active. I believe he can still see out of that eye, but I am not sure how well.

My 9 year old loves this frog, she has been hysterical since he got sick and quite frankly, I love this frog too - I can't bear the idea that he might either be permanently blind, or worse, may die. Neither one of us has slept well in the past 10 days, and I am afraid to look in the tank, lest I find him dead.

Anyone know what this is and how to treat it???? The vet wasn't sure what it was, what caused it, etc. We have well water (naturally soft, no filters or additives), and a charcoal filter in the tank. Tank is sterilized bi monthly, with weekly water changes and scrubbing down of all the plants, etc. in the tank (either in a weak bleach-water solution, or just with hot water and scrubbing). The only other problem we've had is this same frog was spinning a lot several months ago, but that behaviour stopped once I introduced the bleaching, etc. of the tank. Prior to that, we just used hot water in the tank for cleaning, plus the charcoal filter. THis frog eats about 2-3 crickets every other day, we feed the crickets the calcium-enriched cricket food, plus the calcium enriched gel. He occasionally gets some small mealworms, not often. We also do powder the crickets with calcium powder, although not every time. THe powder gets everywhere (he looks like he's just eaten a powdered donut, with white stuff all over his nose) and I think the gut loading of the crickets is likely more useful anyway.

[hyla]

How is the frog? Are you certain it is not the normal membrane covering the eye making it appear cloudy?

[KayIS]

Positive. We've had this frog for years, and this is most definitely not normal. His entire left eye now is completely white-cloudy, and there is a prominent white dot towards the top of the eye. The vet saw him again on Monday, tried to stain the eye (to check for corneal ulcers) and then admitted he'd never tried this with a frog and while it looks like a corneal ulcer to him, he couldn't be entirely sure. The stain didn't hold on his eye, it washed off easily (which it is not supposed to do if there is an ulcer). We were thus sent home with more medicine, which he's had 3 days' worth of and I see no improvement. Maybe it is too early for improvement? He is becoming increasingly blind, though, because he is now spinning and having trouble moving around. I've removed all the potentially sharp objects out of the tank (including plastic grass and leaves) because he's likely to injure himself since he cannot see well out of that eye.

Other than the eye, the vet admitted the frog otherwise is healthy. His appetite is great, he just can't see all that well. He doesn't seem in pain or to be unhappy. He hates the eye drops, which have some atropine among other things, so i don't blame him. The eyedrops smell horrible. Other than natural daylight, I do not turn on any other lights around that tank so I don't stress him out or make his eye hurt from the bright light.

The vet is clearly just guessing, which is not good for us because he is the only herpetologist in the area - which is why I hope someone in Frog Forum can help me. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Any advice?

[GrifTheGreat]

About 10 days ago, we noticed our 5 year old frog was developing a cloudy left eye. We did some water changes, and then eventually completely cleaned the tank. Nobody else (4 other frogs in the tank) have developed the eye problem. We took him to the vet, who prescribed eye drops of GENTAMICIN SULFATE, to be applied twice daily. It's been 5 days, and the frog's eye is getting cloudier - I think it is far worse. He doesn't like the drops either, and will do backflips to get away from it, which is not usual for him because he loves to be held and doesn't usually behave like this.

He is still eating, and still very active. I believe he can still see out of that eye, but I am not sure how well.

My 9 year old loves this frog, she has been hysterical since he got sick and quite frankly, I love this frog too - I can't bear the idea that he might either be permanently blind, or worse, may die. Neither one of us has slept well in the past 10 days, and I am afraid to look in the tank, lest I find him dead.

Anyone know what this is and how to treat it???? The vet wasn't sure what it was, what caused it, etc. We have well water (naturally soft, no filters or additives), and a charcoal filter in the tank. Tank is sterilized bi monthly, with weekly water changes and scrubbing down of all the plants, etc. in the tank (either in a weak bleach-water solution, or just with hot water and scrubbing). The only other problem we've had is this same frog was spinning a lot several months ago, but that behaviour stopped once I introduced the bleaching, etc. of the tank. Prior to that, we just used hot water in the tank for cleaning, plus the charcoal filter. THis frog eats about 2-3 crickets every other day, we feed the crickets the calcium-enriched cricket food, plus the calcium enriched gel. He occasionally gets some small mealworms, not often. We also do powder the crickets with calcium powder, although not every time. THe powder gets everywhere (he looks like he's just eaten a powdered donut, with white stuff all over his nose) and I think the gut loading of the crickets is likely more useful anyway.

Do you treat your well water with a. Water conditioner or de-chlorinator? If not you should. Could be caused by toxins building up in his system over time that is causing the eye to be foggie.

[KayIS]

I don't use a dechlorinator because I have well water that is naturally soft. I have had it tested, and the water doesn't have anything bad in it, some normal minerals but nothing excessive, and it's soft enough that a water softener or other conditioner wasn't recommended. He's been in that water for 5 years, anyway, so to suddenly have problems is odd - and just one eye to me is an odd problem to have. Also, we have a FBT that is about a year older, and she is the picture of health, the prettiest, brightest-eyed FBT you'll ever see.

Nevertheless, I am at a point where I will try anything. What sort of dechlorinator or water conditioner do you recommend?

[Bolisnide]

I'm so sorry about your toad! I hope he gets better soon.
Unfortunately I would not know what could cause this problem with his eye.
Sorry to cut into this thread, but Griff I too have well water and was told a de-chlorinator was not needed as there is no chlorine in the water. I have 2 white's tree frogs.
I didn't know about the water conditioner. What is recommended for those that have well water?

[KayIS]

Update: After 11 days of the corneal ulcer mix (which I find out still uses Gentamycin, but has some other things in it too), the frog's eye was actually looking worse - not just cloudy, but opaque. He could not see at all out of that eye. I took him to another vet to get a second opinion, which was that the problem was corneal in nature, but he didn't know what exactly. He admitted he was no amphibian expert and that actually there is little written literature on these sorts of things. He recommended an opthalmologist (I can't afford this), or just continuing with the treatment, but modifying it by isolating the frog after the drops are put in to make sure they don't wash off too quickly. I am still using the corneal ulcer mix, but I am dosing the frog as recommended by the second vet: twice daily, one drop in the eye, then placing the frog in a clean container with a scant amount of water in it, and leaving him in there for at least 5 minutes before returning him to the aquarium. I've been at this now for about 5 days, and to my amazement, the frog's eye is starting to clear up. It is no longer completely white opaque, but now just hazy, with a distinct opaque area that is shrinking. In dim light, he actually looks normal and I have to examine his underside to make sure I am looking at the right brown frog. He can also now see out of that eye again, although I think his vision is still compromised because he is still spinning around, and I do notice he'll still poke his good eye up sideways to look at me, but less now. I was shocked when he accurately attacked my wiggling finger on his left side - because that means he can actually see out of the cloudy eye.

I don't know if he'll get better completely, but I am hopeful. My own research has come up with a number of possible answers, including corneal lipidosis (another reason why you should NOT overfeed your frog!), and cataracts, but the vet assured me this was no cataract, but some corneal issue. This particular frog weighs almost nothing - he doesn't even register on the scale - and he is anything but fat, so I can safely count out the corneal lipidosis.

Griff, I decided to start using a water conditioner, just in case there is some heavy metals or other contamination in the tank because I want to make sure that is not causing the problem. I am having the water tested again anyway, because i am curious. Heavy metals aren't good for me either. I also wonder if the water's natural softness is an issue for the frog, if he is mineral deficient, but my plumber tells me that there are plenty of minerals in my water because I have buildup in the pipes he recently worked on. Anyone know anything about the minerals, etc. required by frogs, other than calcium?

[BeckyM]

Wow, this sounds almost EXACTLY like what my eastern gray tree frog has. Cloudy eyes, but he still runs around, eats and acts normal. Unlike you, there's not a frog vet anywhere accessible for me. :| Blah! but I did I find a frog "guru" and was told to use Maracyn...but it's not doing much. >_< I too, have changed my frog's water supply.

Frogs and toads also need D3 (so I've heard). I've been giving my crickets some gut loading stuff that's loaded with calcium and D3 so no dusting required for me.

[GrifTheGreat]

Update: After 11 days of the corneal ulcer mix (which I find out still uses Gentamycin, but has some other things in it too), the frog's eye was actually looking worse - not just cloudy, but opaque. He could not see at all out of that eye. I took him to another vet to get a second opinion, which was that the problem was corneal in nature, but he didn't know what exactly. He admitted he was no amphibian expert and that actually there is little written literature on these sorts of things. He recommended an opthalmologist (I can't afford this), or just continuing with the treatment, but modifying it by isolating the frog after the drops are put in to make sure they don't wash off too quickly. I am still using the corneal ulcer mix, but I am dosing the frog as recommended by the second vet: twice daily, one drop in the eye, then placing the frog in a clean container with a scant amount of water in it, and leaving him in there for at least 5 minutes before returning him to the aquarium. I've been at this now for about 5 days, and to my amazement, the frog's eye is starting to clear up. It is no longer completely white opaque, but now just hazy, with a distinct opaque area that is shrinking. In dim light, he actually looks normal and I have to examine his underside to make sure I am looking at the right brown frog. He can also now see out of that eye again, although I think his vision is still compromised because he is still spinning around, and I do notice he'll still poke his good eye up sideways to look at me, but less now. I was shocked when he accurately attacked my wiggling finger on his left side - because that means he can actually see out of the cloudy eye.

I don't know if he'll get better completely, but I am hopeful. My own research has come up with a number of possible answers, including corneal lipidosis (another reason why you should NOT overfeed your frog!), and cataracts, but the vet assured me this was no cataract, but some corneal issue. This particular frog weighs almost nothing - he doesn't even register on the scale - and he is anything but fat, so I can safely count out the corneal lipidosis.

Griff, I decided to start using a water conditioner, just in case there is some heavy metals or other contamination in the tank because I want to make sure that is not causing the problem. I am having the water tested again anyway, because i am curious. Heavy metals aren't good for me either. I also wonder if the water's natural softness is an issue for the frog, if he is mineral deficient, but my plumber tells me that there are plenty of minerals in my water because I have buildup in the pipes he recently worked on. Anyone know anything about the minerals, etc. required by frogs, other than calcium?

Well like us the basically need the same minerals and vitamines. Some water conditioners add minerals to the water which can be used to make distilled water and reverse osmosis water safe for amphibians to use as their main source of water by converting them into drinking water. These are specific conditioners and I don't know their brands off hand. I'm not sure of the exact mineral content that amphibians need compared to us but its similar.

To be safe while waiting to have your water retested I would try to use natural spring water. It must be from an actual spring and contain no additives. This way you can be sure that your frogs are not being exsposed to excessive amounts of heavy metals and or excessive amounts of one type of mineral which like an overdose of a vitamin can cause serious issues. Its the same as being poisoned. So I would try the spring water first while waiting for your well water to be tested again.

You use calcium dust so also use a multivitamine. A multivitamin should only be given once a week. Also when you find out that your well water is safe use (Tetra Fauna Aqua Safe). It says right on it that it makes water safe for reptiles and amphibians. Also removes chlorine/chlorimines/and heavy metals.

I hope this helps there are other brands that remove heavy metals, but I don't know of them. (Prime) is supposed to be and excellent water conditioner/de-chlorinator.

Keep us posted.

[KayIS]

If you've looked at the other threads, it seems that cloudy eye is most commonly associated with bacterial infections, hence all the gentamicin. Maracyn acts on gram positive bacteria, gentamicin sulfate works on gram negative bacteria (and some gram positive), so there is a big difference here. The prescription for my frog is a 0.3% opthalmic solution USP gentamicin sulfate, one drop twice daily fo 7-10 days, although you can see I've been at it quite a bit longer. Maybe you can convince a local vet to get this prescription for you, or find it on the internet. Also, you could try dosing it into the water and having your frog sit in it, since they absorb water through their skin. I wouldn't know what the dose is, it depends on the frog's weight, and if you aren't careful you can kill your frog. Ever try contacting the biology department of your local university? If you're lucky, you'll find an amphibian specialist who can help you and point you in the right direction.

I wonder if you don't treat the eyes whether it will progress to that horrible opaque stuff. I would not have done all this vet stuff if the eye was simply cloudy and wasn't affecting his life. Being blind on one side is a serious thing. Fortunately, he'll never starve, since we hand feed him anyway.

I've also read that cloudiness may just be a sign of aging in certain kinds of frogs too, although i can't find any verification that this is correct.

Good luck.

[KayIS]

Griff - where on earth do I find a multivitamin for an amphibian? My local pet store thinks I am a nut.

[KayIS]

Becky-

sorry i didn't respond directly to you - see my answer after Griff's

[GrifTheGreat]

Griff - where on earth do I find a multivitamin for an amphibian? My local pet store thinks I am a nut.

You can use a multivitamin for Reptiles that is in powder form. Go online and order. Check Josh'sFrogs.com and look for Rep-Cal Herptivite it is a good multivitamin for both reptiles and amphibians.

[BeckyM]

If you've looked at the other threads, it seems that cloudy eye is most commonly associated with bacterial infections, hence all the gentamicin. Maracyn acts on gram positive bacteria, gentamicin sulfate works on gram negative bacteria (and some gram positive), so there is a big difference here. The prescription for my frog is a 0.3% opthalmic solution USP gentamicin sulfate, one drop twice daily fo 7-10 days, although you can see I've been at it quite a bit longer. Maybe you can convince a local vet to get this prescription for you, or find it on the internet. Also, you could try dosing it into the water and having your frog sit in it, since they absorb water through their skin. I wouldn't know what the dose is, it depends on the frog's weight, and if you aren't careful you can kill your frog. Ever try contacting the biology department of your local university? If you're lucky, you'll find an amphibian specialist who can help you and point you in the right direction.

I wonder if you don't treat the eyes whether it will progress to that horrible opaque stuff. I would not have done all this vet stuff if the eye was simply cloudy and wasn't affecting his life. Being blind on one side is a serious thing. Fortunately, he'll never starve, since we hand feed him anyway.

I've also read that cloudiness may just be a sign of aging in certain kinds of frogs too, although i can't find any verification that this is correct.

Good luck.

Sounds like I'd administer the gentamicin the same way I do the maracyn. I mix it with water and the frog soaks in it (Unless he hops out...>_>)
Aging...well, that could possibly be the case with my frog. He's at least 7.
Biology department? Now that is an excellent idea! Thank you.

[KayIS]

Do you know what the ratio of antibiotic to water for your frog? That was one thing I didn't get - because my frog weighs so little it didn't even register on the scale at the vet's. Maybe your frog weighs more. As for age, my frog is 5 years old, which is young because he can live anywhere from 15 to 30 years. I don't know what the lifespan of your frog is - 7 may well be old. I hope you find a herpetologist, but my experience has been that outside the university, most of them are more knowledgable about reptiles, not amphibians. Good luck.

[BeckyM]

He weighs about the same as a hermit crab with a shell...maybe a smidge heavier. He's LITTLE. And I've been doing about 1/3 packet of maracyn to 2 cups of water. I know it's a stronger concentration, much stronger, but he's not in the mix as long as fish is.

Gray treefrogs don't live much longer than 8 years.

[KayIS]

Gee - if he seems okay otherwise, I'd stop dosing him and just let him live out his life. I wouldn't have treated my frog if he was 25 and could still otherwise see and enjoy life. I only did it because he's young and he was really pretty blind. If it was just cosmetic, I'd leave him alone.

[BeckyM]

Gee - if he seems okay otherwise, I'd stop dosing him and just let him live out his life. I wouldn't have treated my frog if he was 25 and could still otherwise see and enjoy life. I only did it because he's young and he was really pretty blind. If it was just cosmetic, I'd leave him alone.

Yeah, other than his nasty eyes, he seems a-ok now. He can eat and will follow my fingers when I put them close to him. It's not affecting his vision at all, or doesn't seem to be.

[Ira]

I know more about rana/bufo species, and don't have much hands-on experience with tree frogs, but isn't he a bit on the skinny side? I know that in a rana species if a backbone sticks through the skin that much, the frog is very skinny...

Also, when I was fighting the red-leg desease in one of my frogs, the vet I went to to get an antibiotic suggested to put it directly on the frog's back in correct dosage, keeping the frog in slightly wet small container for a about 10 minutes. I'm still amazed that my frog made it. He was very apathetic for almost a year and ignored food, I had to force-feed him; now 3 years later he's fully recovered, attacks the bugs and makes a lot of noise. Just a suggestion, I know it probably makes more sense to put it in the eye in your case.

Do you have a UV source in the tank? Never researched if tree frogs need it, but might be worth looking into. For some frogs it's critical to have proper UV exposure. I know that for mine it is. I keep mine outside in summer, and usally let them hibernate in winter (mine hibernate under water) with a compressor in the tank to make sure they have oxygen and the surface does not completely freeze. Apparently I'm doing something right - they bred 2 years in a row. When talking to a very qualified vet at a university, I was also told that the UV-producing lights that pet stores sell (repti-light or smth.like that) are good, but should be replaced every year, because they quit producing UV rays after that, even though they keep producing light.

And if vision ever becomes an issue in the future, you can always put bugs on a stick and very lightly brush lower lip or top of front legs, it usually producess the reflex to grab the food.

Good luck! I know I was going nuts over my frog for months when he was sick.

[Mattyman67]

I know this is an old thread but if you havent figured it out yet..the opaque cloudy eye comes from lipid deposits in the eye. This is called Corneal lipidosis. It comes from too much cholesterol in the diet. Crickets are high in cholesterol but it doesen't sound like you're overfeeding. You didnt mention the size of the crickets you were feeding if youre feeding adults you may want to switch to smaller crickets. I had been having the same problem with grey tree frogs but it is hard to find an easily available substitute feeder. If you catch it in the early stages it can be reversible but not always..If you find a good solution let me know
good luck,
Matt