Help!! Just lost my female RETF! Can you tell what happened to her based on these pics!!

[flybyferns]

Hi 'Berry',
Sorry about your frog.
I couple things come to mind.

I'm a nurse not an vet. However, the entire pelvic area looks ulcerated. It appears to me that this may occur after /during the spread of an infection , such as what might happen after a puncture wound? I don't know if the skin surface breaks down like this due to the circulatory problems that result from red leg? Remember red leg in not an infection, it is a syndrome ( a collection of symptoms ) thought to occur from stress ? ( unknown cause and cure ) Also, If you look closely a pic #1 there is also a little wound on the upper L / neck. I would check everything in their enclosure to make certain there is nothing sharp. Nothing they can jump into after being spooked ! Let's face it , they are NOT smart. Any little point can break there delicate skin.

ie : once I purchased some fake vines -while I was preparing to install the into my enclosure -I noticed there were these little 'buds' on the vine (put there to make the vine looks realistic) . However, there was a VERY sharp pc of wire sticking out of every bud! Even the tip of certain Bromelaids have very sharp points! I do not use Bromes in my enclosure. I had a plant once that had tiny,tiny prickers on the rim of a leaf ! All of these things have to be inspected very carefully.

Their enclosures confine them ( even if it's large) so they need to be protected if they should jump from each other in enclosures like ours that house more than a few ???
No disrespect ! but I think you are a bit overcrowded? ie I have 6 in a 36x36x18. I personally ,would not add another to mine. They really don't care whether they have any
other ' Red Eye company'. They don't cuddle and will only need/want another to mate. And in fact, they have calls that tell another red eye to get off their plant !!! You might consider taking the little ones out ? Don't know? see what others think.

Help on Diagnosis:
'DonLisk' - moderator- suggested this for a another FF member. Perhaps you could email the pic to Dr Frye>
Don't know? I guess it would be best to get Don's advice.

Dr.Frye.dvm@sbcglobal.net

Again I'm very sorry .
I think it is very smart to pursue a cause and options, obviously to protect the other in your enclosure !
Lynn

[ViperJr]

I don't know if the skin surface breaks down like this due to the circulatory problems that result from red leg? Remember red leg in not an infection, it is a syndrome ( a collection of symptoms ) thought to occur from stress ? ( unknown cause and cure )

I'm affraid you are wrong, Lynn. Red-leg disease (like Kirsten suggested) IS an bacterial infection, often (but not always) caused by different bacterial species of the Aeromonas genus. The disease got it name from the redness occuring (often on the underside of the legs) due to broken capillaries, which is an result from the bacterial infection.
However, stress greatly reduces the frog's immune system, thereby making stressed frogs more prone to develope red-leg disease. Aeromonas are common in both water and soil, so it's very likely to be introduced in tank, but a healthy, non-stressed frog will likely never get the disease at all.

That being said, I'm not saying that this particular frog got red-leg disease or not. I'm affraid I have not idea what happen, other than it seems strange. But I am by no means a vet, and I have no experience in dealing with injured frogs.

[flybyferns]

Hi All,
Sharing
Here is some current/ additional “Red Leg Disease” info I keep in a folder on my desk top : to remind myself that --prevention is the best defense! : I am no expert !. However I believe the cause for this is still quite controversial.

Yes, the frog dies of an opportunistic bacterial infection due to a suppressed immune system. Actually a bacterial infection that results is secondary to the red leg disease. ( “ accompanies the disease” ). Identification of an exact pathogen (there is more than one that can causes the infection ) would have to be exact for successful treatment, which is rare. Aeromonas hydrophyla is actually a parasite.
Unfortunately, by the time symptoms are noticed. It has become systemic.

< copied from 5 research articles>

>Red leg is a difficult topic. It is a syndrome - a collection of symptoms - not a specific disease. Most all available information on it is theoretical and differing theories and opinions result in much controversy on the issue.
To start, the name itself is confusing since redness in the legs has little or nothing to do with it. Several species of frogs have a red tint to their legs which is perfectly normal and certainly no indication of illness. The reddening which can occur with this condition is as a result of the rupturing of blood vessels which causes a collection of pooling blood under the skin. This is most evident and visible in the legs and belly due to the light color of the skin allowing the red color of the blood to show through the skin. So it's important to point out that red legs are not a clear indication of this condition.
Secondly, there is still some debate as to the specific pathogen that causes this condition. It is most commonly believed to be caused by Aeromonas. It is believed that the causing pathogen is an opportunistic bacteria which lies dormant in the frog's system waiting for a chance to overtake it. A healthy frog's immune system can effectively fight off the bacteria. Any stressing factor, such as: improper temperature and/or humidity regulations, unclean tank conditions, infrequent water changes resulting in dirty water, unnecessary handlings, mixing species, exposure to toxins, another illness, etc., can result in a weakened immune system. Once the immune system is weak and not functioning properly, it can no longer hold the bacteria at bay. The bacteria then multiples and overtakes the system resulting in infection and the frog having "red leg". Although several antibiotics and various other treatments have been tried, there is no known cure. Therefore, prevention of this condition is very important as preventing it from occurring is much easier than treating and/or curing it as few frogs survive the illness.>


>In amphibians bacterial infections are commonly caused by gram-negative bacteria, such as Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, Proteus, and E. coli. Poor husbandry, (e.g., overcrowding, poor water quality, inappropriate cage design or setup, spoiled food, exposure to toxins such as pesticides) may allow one of these bacteria to overwhelm amphibian's immunologic defenses.
Aeromonas is the most common cause of clinical bacterial diseases in amphibians and has been associated with the syndrome known as red leg disease. Once the first warning signs are noticed, (e.g., reddening of the under-skin, loss of appetite) appropriate antibacterial therapy is necessary. Treatment will depend on the exact pathogen that has been cultured and definitely identified. >

>The most infamous frog disease of captive frogs, Red-leg is usually caused by the parasite Aeromonas hydrophyla. It appears as a reddening of the skin, particularly on the belly and underside of the thighs, (not to be confused with the natural colorings of some species of frogs!) Frogs that get red-leg tend to act apathetic and lazy. This is a really lethal disease so isolate the affected frog(s) right away! Sometimes in the case of newly imported animals it is more likely due to abrasions caused by dry packing, like cardboard. In the latter case, the only treatment necessary is to correct the cause and keep the affected animal(s) in an incredibly clean cage for a few days. Otherwise, red leg caught in it's early stages can sometimes be treated by bathing the frog in a Sulfamethiazine bath (15 ml for every 10 l water) daily for 2 weeks, or a 2% solution of copper sulfate or potassium permanganate for the same period. If it shows no signs of getting better after the first week, sometimes you can treat them with the use of an antibiotic like tetracycline, so consult your veterinarian on treatment. >

>Treating “red-leg” syndrome will depend on the underlying cause of the disease. For example, if it is due to the Aeromonas hydrophila bacterium, your veterinarian will prescribe antibiotics for the amphibian. Follow the guidelines set by your veterinarian to get optimum results.>

>Red-leg syndrome, refers to the hyperemia of the ventral skin that accompanies systemic infection in amphibians. Saprophytic, gram-negative bacteria such as Aeromonas spp, Pseudomonas spp, Proteus spp, and Citrobacter spp typically result in “red-leg syndrome”. Viruses, fungi, and other pathogens may cause similar lesions. >

[ViperJr]

Hi All,
Sharing
Here is some current/ additional “Red Leg Disease” info I keep in a folder on my desk top : to remind myself that --prevention is the best defense! : I am no expert !. However I believe the cause for this is still quite controversial.

Yes, the frog dies of an opportunistic bacterial infection due to a suppressed immune system. Actually a bacterial infection that results is secondary to the red leg disease. ( “ accompanies the disease” ). Identification of an exact pathogen (there is more than one that can causes the infection ) would have to be exact for successful treatment, which is rare. Aeromonas hydrophyla is actually a parasite.
Unfortunately, by the time symptoms are noticed. It has become systemic.

First of all, when quoting scientific articles like that, please add the source, otherwise it's frankly quite useless. As far as I know, a 5 year old could have wrote that. Or even worse, me!
Second of all, Aeromonas hydrophyla might be a parasite, but that does not mean it's not a bacteria. Not sure how it's relevant though?

All the information about red-leg disease I can find bascially claims that, like I said earlier, it's a name for an bacterial infection often caused by the Aeromonas genus. Now, I don't know if that's enough to call it an actually disease, symptom, syndrome or whatnot, but it sums up red-leg disease as far as I'm concerned. Just make sure the frogs are overall healthy and unstressed, and it will not likely happen to your frogs.

Lastly, I feel that we've strayed quite a lot from the topic. I feel that if we should continue this discussion, it should be done in a new topic(or continued via PM).
Also, I THINK it's safe to say that the frog in the OP did not die from red-leg disease. But once again, I am no vet.

[DonLisk]

I'm going to have to say that the biggest lesson learned here is Quarantine. Adding a newly purchased frog to an existing and healthy environment while not knowing your new frogs current conditions is a bad thing.

I would guess that without the frog being in Dr Frye's hands, its hit or miss as to why it died.


Now, what are the chances that what killed your new frog has spread through the Exo-Terra? I would clean that tank well and keep a close eye on the other frogs.

[Poly]

I'm going to have to say that the biggest lesson learned here is Quarantine. Adding a newly purchased frog to an existing and healthy environment while not knowing your new frogs current conditions is a bad thing.

I would guess that without the frog being in Dr Frye's hands, its hit or miss as to why it died.


Now, what are the chances that what killed your new frog has spread through the Exo-Terra? I would clean that tank well and keep a close eye on the other frogs.

After 3 days, I skipped my other Painted frog's quarantine period, and put him in the same Vivarium with my slightly larger one, but ONLY becuase they were initially kept together in the pet store anyway. I haven't had any issues, they actually seem to keep each other company, they burrow next to each other, soak together, eat together, etc. but I wouldn't do this with two frogs from different enviroments.

[Herpvet]

Hi,

Just a couple of comments on this (sorry, I get picky sometimes when I see these types of articles).

"Red leg" is a bit of an ambiguous term given that it is used non-rigorously by many people, but in the veterinary sense the preferred term is technically dermatosepticaemia. It is pathogen-associated septicaemia (systemic infection) - typically bacterial but as noted viruses, Chlamydophila and fungi may also be causes. The visible reddening is caused by various degrees of erythema/petecchiation/ecchymoses - basically dilation/small ruptures/large ruptures of the skin blood vessels due (it is thought) to damage to blood and vessels from the pathogen and/or its toxins.

"Stress" is almost always considered to be a factor in this condition, as with most amphibian health problems

[QUOTE]""Aeromonas hydrophyla is actually a parasite"" [QUOTE]

Unless Aeromonas hydrophyla exists and isn't just a typo in the original paper....Aeromonas hydrophila is a bacterium. Parasite as a term is not generally applied to bacteria, viruses or fungi

[QUOTE] Red leg is a difficult topic. It is a syndrome - a collection of symptoms - not a specific disease. Most all available information on it is theoretical and differing theories and opinions result in much controversy on the issue.
To start, the name itself is confusing since redness in the legs has little or nothing to do with it. Several species of frogs have a red tint to their legs which is perfectly normal and certainly no indication of illness. The reddening which can occur with this condition is as a result of the rupturing of blood vessels which causes a collection of pooling blood under the skin. This is most evident and visible in the legs and belly due to the light color of the skin allowing the red color of the blood to show through the skin. So it's important to point out that red legs are not a clear indication of this condition.
Secondly, there is still some debate as to the specific pathogen that causes this condition. It is most commonly believed to be caused by Aeromonas. It is believed that the causing pathogen is an opportunistic bacteria which lies dormant in the frog's system waiting for a chance to overtake it. A healthy frog's immune system can effectively fight off the bacteria. Any stressing factor, such as: improper temperature and/or humidity regulations, unclean tank conditions, infrequent water changes resulting in dirty water, unnecessary handlings, mixing species, exposure to toxins, another illness, etc., can result in a weakened immune system. Once the immune system is weak and not functioning properly, it can no longer hold the bacteria at bay. The bacteria then multiples and overtakes the system resulting in infection and the frog having "red leg". Although several antibiotics and various other treatments have been tried, there is no known cure. Therefore, prevention of this condition is very important as preventing it from occurring is much easier than treating and/or curing it as few frogs survive the illness.[QUOTE]

Well - having just said it's a syndrome, this article then seems to try to suggest there is a specific pathogen rather than one of many that may be the cause in a particular case, although it makes mainly valid points.

[QUOTE]In amphibians bacterial infections are commonly caused by gram-negative bacteria, such as Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, Proteus, and E. coli. Poor husbandry, (e.g., overcrowding, poor water quality, inappropriate cage design or setup, spoiled food, exposure to toxins such as pesticides) may allow one of these bacteria to overwhelm amphibian's immunologic defenses.
Aeromonas is the most common cause of clinical bacterial diseases in amphibians and has been associated with the syndrome known as red leg disease. Once the first warning signs are noticed, (e.g., reddening of the under-skin, loss of appetite) appropriate antibacterial therapy is necessary. Treatment will depend on the exact pathogen that has been cultured and definitely identified. [QUOTE]

No argument with this (unless I really want to quibble - antimicrobial is better than antibacterial here as other microorganisms may be involved...sorry)

[QUOTE] The most infamous frog disease of captive frogs, Red-leg is usually caused by the parasite Aeromonas hydrophyla. It appears as a reddening of the skin, particularly on the belly and underside of the thighs, (not to be confused with the natural colorings of some species of frogs!) Frogs that get red-leg tend to act apathetic and lazy. This is a really lethal disease so isolate the affected frog(s) right away! Sometimes in the case of newly imported animals it is more likely due to abrasions caused by dry packing, like cardboard. In the latter case, the only treatment necessary is to correct the cause and keep the affected animal(s) in an incredibly clean cage for a few days. Otherwise, red leg caught in it's early stages can sometimes be treated by bathing the frog in a Sulfamethiazine bath (15 ml for every 10 l water) daily for 2 weeks, or a 2% solution of copper sulfate or potassium permanganate for the same period. If it shows no signs of getting better after the first week, sometimes you can treat them with the use of an antibiotic like tetracycline, so consult your veterinarian on treatment. [QUOTE]

Ignore these treatment suggestions. Get the frog to a vet if possible. More modern antibiotics are likely to be much more effective, and other supportive treatments such as anti-inflammatories may help as well.

[QUOTE]Treating “red-leg” syndrome will depend on the underlying cause of the disease. For example, if it is due to the Aeromonas hydrophila bacterium, your veterinarian will prescribe antibiotics for the amphibian. Follow the guidelines set by your veterinarian to get optimum results.[QUOTE]

True.

[QUOTE]Red-leg syndrome, refers to the hyperemia of the ventral skin that accompanies systemic infection in amphibians. Saprophytic, gram-negative bacteria such as Aeromonas spp, Pseudomonas spp, Proteus spp, and Citrobacter spp typically result in “red-leg syndrome”. Viruses, fungi, and other pathogens may cause similar lesions. [QUOTE]

I don't like the word saprophytic - it refers to organisms that derive nutrition from dead/decaying matter, and implies that it is not an active pathogen, which these organisms definitely can be.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

[berryblonde2u]

Thank you to all that replied to my thread! I really want you all to know that I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your expertise with me !! I guess what confuses me is that she was fine an hour before that. She has showed no symptoms of stress. She had been climbing about, eating very well, pooping VERY well. Showing no weight loss, colors were great. I did however find the puncture wound as bothersome as intriguing ( now that I have 'mourned').It was time to problem-solve. I did find that when I removed the Exoterra vines that there were at least two sharp wires, that apparently I had overlooked when adding to the vivarium. My daughter concurred that they were very possibly the culprit for the puncture wound on the throat? So now I don't know if I feel better or worse? I feel my negligence as far as her "unsafe surroundings' are concerned. What was hard to represent in the pics is that her skin looked torn, the skin did not look ulcerated or necrotic in person, which is poorly represented in the pics. It's as though she was in a sitting position and opened like a pocket knife ( or hyper-extended positionally)and the skin tore. The edges of the skin were clean and sharp. I have broke down the viv and are watching all the Red-Eyed Leaf Frog like a hawk.
I did notice about 4 days ago,that one of the Juvi Red-Eyed Leaf Frog had a rectal prolapse, (had never seen on an amphibian before, just rectal and uterine prolapse on humans) but it looked exactly the same. I immediately removed him. Thinking it was a dietary thing causing the prolapse, I made a concoction of crushed Hydei and Repashy and attempted feed w/ a 1 cc syringe, I was afraid I was going to stress him out(trying to open his mouth) I stopped.
It lasted about 10 minutes, it retracted on it's own and showed no further symptoms.... although based on what I've read it doesn't sound like I'm in the clear yet. Based on my reading (thinking it was a 'dietary thing') I have watched the Juvis at night, and watched one leap at a 1/4" (Repashy Supervite powdered) crix 2x and missed the crix! The crix then got away,so I put some new some are 1/8" into a clear glass (margarita shaped) so the crix could not escape, trying to make it as simple as possible for a 'kill'. I didn't want to stress it out watching, but noted the next morning there was poop in the glass and several (most) were gone!! It just dawned on me that I should have posted this under rectal prolapse....So I guess I'm dealing with all these mysteries and tribulations, all at once (too close together for my well being and THEIRS)!!!

[flybyferns]

Michelle,
Thanks for posting an up-date !

Those darn vines and fake plants, as previously mentioned, are very dangerous for our frogs!
I'm glad to hear you sound resolved in concluding he may have been injured?

When a pothos plant grows really long, they can be nicely suspended and attached ( wound) to each other to create a vine. All those nice wide leaves are a bonus for them to sleep on. I rigged one up across the top of my enclosure. There is a pic in my "set Up " album if you want to take a peek.

Lynn

[flybyferns]

[QUOTE=Herpvet;90952]Hi,

Just a couple of comments on this (sorry, I get picky sometimes when I see these types of articles).

"Red leg" is a bit of an ambiguous term given that it is used non-rigorously by many people, but in the veterinary sense the preferred term is technically dermatosepticaemia. It is pathogen-associated septicaemia (systemic infection) - typically bacterial but as noted viruses, Chlamydophila and fungi may also be causes. The visible reddening is caused by various degrees of erythema/petecchiation/ecchymoses - basically dilation/small ruptures/large ruptures of the skin blood vessels due (it is thought) to damage to blood and vessels from the pathogen and/or its toxins.

"Stress" is almost always considered to be a factor in this condition, as with most amphibian health problems

[QUOTE]""Aeromonas hydrophyla is actually a parasite"" [QUOTE]

Unless Aeromonas hydrophyla exists and isn't just a typo in the original paper....Aeromonas hydrophila is a bacterium. Parasite as a term is not generally applied to bacteria, viruses or fungi

[QUOTE] Red leg is a difficult topic. It is a syndrome - a collection of symptoms - not a specific disease. Most all available information on it is theoretical and differing theories and opinions result in much controversy on the issue.
To start, the name itself is confusing since redness in the legs has little or nothing to do with it. Several species of frogs have a red tint to their legs which is perfectly normal and certainly no indication of illness. The reddening which can occur with this condition is as a result of the rupturing of blood vessels which causes a collection of pooling blood under the skin. This is most evident and visible in the legs and belly due to the light color of the skin allowing the red color of the blood to show through the skin. So it's important to point out that red legs are not a clear indication of this condition.
Secondly, there is still some debate as to the specific pathogen that causes this condition. It is most commonly believed to be caused by Aeromonas. It is believed that the causing pathogen is an opportunistic bacteria which lies dormant in the frog's system waiting for a chance to overtake it. A healthy frog's immune system can effectively fight off the bacteria. Any stressing factor, such as: improper temperature and/or humidity regulations, unclean tank conditions, infrequent water changes resulting in dirty water, unnecessary handlings, mixing species, exposure to toxins, another illness, etc., can result in a weakened immune system. Once the immune system is weak and not functioning properly, it can no longer hold the bacteria at bay. The bacteria then multiples and overtakes the system resulting in infection and the frog having "red leg". Although several antibiotics and various other treatments have been tried, there is no known cure. Therefore, prevention of this condition is very important as preventing it from occurring is much easier than treating and/or curing it as few frogs survive the illness.[QUOTE]

Well - having just said it's a syndrome, this article then seems to try to suggest there is a specific pathogen rather than one of many that may be the cause in a particular case, although it makes mainly valid points.

[QUOTE]In amphibians bacterial infections are commonly caused by gram-negative bacteria, such as Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, Proteus, and E. coli. Poor husbandry, (e.g., overcrowding, poor water quality, inappropriate cage design or setup, spoiled food, exposure to toxins such as pesticides) may allow one of these bacteria to overwhelm amphibian's immunologic defenses.
Aeromonas is the most common cause of clinical bacterial diseases in amphibians and has been associated with the syndrome known as red leg disease. Once the first warning signs are noticed, (e.g., reddening of the under-skin, loss of appetite) appropriate antibacterial therapy is necessary. Treatment will depend on the exact pathogen that has been cultured and definitely identified. [QUOTE]

No argument with this (unless I really want to quibble - antimicrobial is better than antibacterial here as other microorganisms may be involved...sorry)

[QUOTE] The most infamous frog disease of captive frogs, Red-leg is usually caused by the parasite Aeromonas hydrophyla. It appears as a reddening of the skin, particularly on the belly and underside of the thighs, (not to be confused with the natural colorings of some species of frogs!) Frogs that get red-leg tend to act apathetic and lazy. This is a really lethal disease so isolate the affected frog(s) right away! Sometimes in the case of newly imported animals it is more likely due to abrasions caused by dry packing, like cardboard. In the latter case, the only treatment necessary is to correct the cause and keep the affected animal(s) in an incredibly clean cage for a few days. Otherwise, red leg caught in it's early stages can sometimes be treated by bathing the frog in a Sulfamethiazine bath (15 ml for every 10 l water) daily for 2 weeks, or a 2% solution of copper sulfate or potassium permanganate for the same period. If it shows no signs of getting better after the first week, sometimes you can treat them with the use of an antibiotic like tetracycline, so consult your veterinarian on treatment. [QUOTE]

Ignore these treatment suggestions. Get the frog to a vet if possible. More modern antibiotics are likely to be much more effective, and other supportive treatments such as anti-inflammatories may help as well.

[QUOTE]Treating “red-leg” syndrome will depend on the underlying cause of the disease. For example, if it is due to the Aeromonas hydrophila bacterium, your veterinarian will prescribe antibiotics for the amphibian. Follow the guidelines set by your veterinarian to get optimum results.[QUOTE]

True.

[QUOTE]Red-leg syndrome, refers to the hyperemia of the ventral skin that accompanies systemic infection in amphibians. Saprophytic, gram-negative bacteria such as Aeromonas spp, Pseudomonas spp, Proteus spp, and Citrobacter spp typically result in “red-leg syndrome”. Viruses, fungi, and other pathogens may cause similar lesions.

I don't like the word saprophytic - it refers to organisms that derive nutrition from dead/decaying matter, and implies that it is not an active pathogen, which these organisms definitely can be.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

Hi Bruce,
Thanks so much for posting , it is truly appreciated. You don't have to apologize about being picky. I appreciated your responding to these quotes.

I posted these quotes ( it was simply information I set aside for myself over the past year or so) . It helps to remind me - that prevention is the best medicine. I'm afraid that my intention to help ( the FF with her Red Eye ) went off the beat in path. None of this was scientific research. I did not save any resource information to link to. Quotes were used in my post because I would never want to take credit for another person written material- right or wrong.
Lynn

[flybyferns]

All very true!
So what does everyone think would be the next best step for 'berry' to take ?
Hopefully a diagnosis can be made w/ the pics.

[DonLisk]

I would believe sending the pics to Dr Frye might help in giving some clue to the reason for the loss. I would think the hole in the throat will be giving the answer.