How do I care for a big bunch of Canes?

[David Pinckney]

Hello everyone.

I am new to this forum, and I have joined because I am interested in learning how to improve my caretaking abilities for amphibians. Or ‘husbandry’, as I’ve learned a lot of people like to say. I find that funny, because it sounds like husband. I guess that means I’ve been a polygamist

I’m making plans, and I would love any advice from someone who’s taken on a project of its scale, because it’s BIGGER than anything I’ve done before. If I were to keep 10 adult Cane toads as pets, and in a common enclosure, what would be the appropriate size for the terrarium? Obviously, there is no amount of confinement that is of benefit to them, and I’m sure that I can easily accommodate the minimum, but how large ‘should’ it be? In other words, how small could it be, before any further decrease in its size would be of, at least some, meaningful compromise to them? And, how big would it be, before any increase in size would confer no meaningful benefit?

Also how high can this species jump when fully grown? It’s very important to me, just in case one of them is an incessant jumper (who isn’t dissuaded by self-inflicted injury), that they can’t reach the ceiling. With ten of these rather large toads I’ll clearly be going through a sizeable amount of food, so to cut down on cost I intend to culture prey animals at home. Here is a list of the food items that I’m aware are sometimes given to frogs:

1. Butterworms.
2. Calcium dust.
3. Chicks.
4. Crickets
5. Earthworms.
6. Guppies.
7. Gut load preparations (for prey).
8. Mealworms.
9. Mice.
10. Monkey chow.
11. Other frogs!
12. Silkworms.
13. Vitamin powder (including D3).
14. Waxworms.

I haven’t used all of these things in my own experience. The closest anuran to the Cane Toad that I’ve cared for, in terms of size, is an Argentine Horned Frog (I’ve recently found out that their common name is Pac-Man frogs). That’s pretty humorous This was more than a decade ago. In order of amount, what I gave my black hole of a pet was crickets, full grown mice, and gold fish. I didn’t use gut load, cause I didn’t breed my own, nor calcium powder, but the mice and crickets were dusted with herp vitamins every time (about twice a week).
After reading some of the threads on this forum, I see that some people would disagree with some of the ways I did that. I’ll feed them whatever is ideal, but I don’t know which of these items are good staples, and which should be occasional, or are unnecessary, or even inappropriate (although, I have my doubts about the Monkey Chow). I’ve yet to hear any admonishments about not overfeeding a frog earthworms. If this could be a staple, that would be convenient. They are the least labor intensive animal to farm, and I could feed them for free. I like the idea of having a large tank, swarming with guppies, almost for its own sake. I can do mice, roaches, mealworms; I’m game for anything but the chickens! If that’s a must I’ll just order them frozen through the mail. Which animals should I be producing, and what population sizes will they have to have, in order that they don’t deplete?

Cheers!

David.

[DonLisk]

Hi David,
I definitely don't have an answer to many of your questions but it is usually recommended to have 10 gallons of space per frog. Gut loaded crickets is going to be the main staple of feeding and dusting the crickets twice a week with calcium would be sufficient.

As for feeding other insects, hopefully someone who have kept canes will pipe in and have some suggestions.

Don

[LazyEyedFroggie]

I think that a cane toad (due to it's size) needs at least 20 gallons per toad. Even though they're generally very lazy, they can cover a lot of ground. I think 200 gallons would be the best size for a whopping 10 of these guys. They like to have personal space, and can grow to almost a foot, so I really wouldn't go a lot smaller than that.

The food choices best for this animal would be: large Dubia Roaches, large nightcrawlers (earthworms), appropriately sized mice and chicks (some find this inhumane), super worms, and virtually any other decent sized insect that's non-toxic. Calcium/vitamin dusting should occur when low-nutrient prey items are given. Gutload your prey well before feeding to maximize the nutritiousness of a meal. Fish probably wouldn't be the best idea because they're too small for the most part, and even in pet stores are commonly parasite-ridden.

I don't know exactly how high Canes can jump, but given that most normal sized toads can jump in the range of 6in to 1ft, I'd estimate their jump height to be 1 - 2 feet. Again, just a guess. And I do know they can jump fairly far.

In terms of culturing live food, earth worms (pesticide-free) would be an efficient food supply. You'd certainly want to spice up their lives a bit with some variety, though!

Good luck! - Robin

[Wormwood]

I don't see raising enough feeders to be a viable option for 10 cane toads to be honest. They eat like pigs. It probally would be worth the $18-20 bucks a month to drop on a box of 1000 super worms at some reptile show or online rather then try to raise a truck bed sized farm of earth worms. Use earth worms, pinky mice and dubia as treats. Dubia and earthworms take to long to grow to a size to make them be worth it. I gut load my superworms with organic chicken/fish based cat food and dust them.

I would agree with the 20 gallons per toad. I had two cane toads before in a 40 gallon breeder and even that became to small once they grew. Right now I have them in a large hexagon tank (the kind they keep ferrets in at pet stores) and they still can leap the tank in two bounds. You want a low tank as opposed to something deep so they have the option to move around. With ten toads your going to need about 5-6 hides, which also takes up space.. and a LARGE water source, unless you plan to change out the water source a couple of times a day (and that's just two toads). They poop ALOT if feed properly. Mine like to relive themselves in water and I find myself changing it out daily to keep it safe for them to sit in.

[David Pinckney]

Hey guys, thanks for the pointers.

I’m definitely going to start with just one Toad, and use the experience to gauge what’s needed for ten. I guess it should be easy. Whatever it takes X 10. I have plenty of space, and I wouldn’t mind having a terrarium with the dimensions of, maybe as much as: 8’L X 3’D X 3’H (about 550 Gallons, I think) or so, siting on an industrial storage rack. The style of construction by companies like ‘Zoo Med’, and ‘Exo Terra’ (all transparent, with outward opening, high-set doors) is exactly how I want it to be. Except, they don’t use acrylic (a MUST) and they don’t make them anywhere near that big I've been looking around on the net for someone who does (no luck). I guess I might have to build it myself.

I really appreciate the advice about the food. I’m still going to try my hand at farming though Wormwood. I hope that you’re wrong about it being too much of a hassle. If that’s true then so be it, but I’d like to find out. By using one toad first to extrapolate I won’t be in for any frustrating surprises. I didn’t know that crickets eat meat. No one ever told me. All I knew about was fresh fruits and vegetables, and the readymade gut load formulas.

I’m going to go to the vivarium forum, to see if anyone has heard of commercial made terrariums, of the sort that I’m looking for. With so many people owning giant constrictors, and monitor lizards I’d be stunned to find that there’s still no one out there selling such a thing!

[Wormwood]

Crickets will eat anything. They go nuts over the cat food actually.

[Greenhorn]

David, were you planning on breeding them? Just curious, why 10? Why cane toads? What experience do you have with frogs and toads or reptiles/amphibians in general?

[Deku]

I haven't read much of what others said so I'm not sure if people already said this but umm here it goes:

You shouldn't feed a toad "monkey chow" even if it "could" eat it doesn't mean it "should". Avoid feeding frogs altogether because all frogs have toxins in their skin to some extent and not only that usually may harbor parasites or bacteria your toads may not be immune to.

As for foods; they eat a ton. I think one large cane toad could easily go through 25large worms. Mine does... Avoid chicks they're hard to consume for amphibians and not only that they may peck at the toad. Not really sure what would happen but I get a weird vibe when you said chicks. So as for mice I would only feed pinky mice once a month AS a treat(anything that can bite the toad should not be fed). Butterworms and waxworms are high in fat so feed with moderation(treat). Feed the toads as followed: anything below 4inches I would feed three times a week as much as they can eat within 30minutes or if the toad is shy you can extend that to atleast 10large earthworms or 20small dubias(dubias are already small), etc. Depends on size of the prey. As well as the toad can eat alot granted but if the thing looks super obese(toads look fat but there is a fine line between fat and obese) then slow down on feeding. This also applies on temp too. Higher temps give better metabolism imho, but still wouldn't go over the border of feeding....

Roaches are excellent feeders all around nutrition but there are many types of roaches too. Such as dubias, lobster roaches, hissers, etc... I'm not a roach user for several reasons(not related to nutrition or care of the animal more or less personal); but by all means use them if you can! They breed like crazy(some not as much-- but most do). Earthworms are high in proteins and low in fat so they also make a good staple diet.

But make sure to alternate between atleast 3-5prey items each feeding. I would avoid using fish-- even if you can breed them and even if by any chance they're clean. They don't provide much nutrition for a toad or so I heard and then again you never know your batch of fish could get sick and pass it on to the toad.

Crickets are okay feeders but should always be gut loaded a day prior to feeding.

As for ten toads? I wouldn't recommend ten toads to be honest... One toad poops alot, imagine alot of them. I love them but my honest opinion at most someone could own 5 large cane toads. Their space requirements and feeding habits plus the fact they're pooping machines doesn't make it easy. Toads usually don't move around that much even if given that much space(for an animal in general) but they still need space especially a bigger toad. Plus cane toads are slightly different since they're know to be more active at night IN THE WILD. I would give one toad atleast 2-3feet in length of space and in width atleast 2feet. That is my opinion though.

Remember in this hobby not everyone will agree with what you say or do. Half could agree or half could disagree or most could disagree or agree. You just have to find what works for you and the animal. If the animal has clean bill of health and in tip top shape then it's alright. Thriving and living are two different things. But a "living" animal could have a not so great bill of health and barely clinging to life. I mean example: I could get hit by a truck and be clinging to life. Does that mean I'm thriving? No. It means at the moment I'm living. My health won't be in great shape but it's still there.

Toads are different in behavior even in the same group. Example from my common NA toads I have 2 that are active and curious while one of them is shy and active at night only.

But in the end it's your call and all up to you on what you decide to do. I think they should be given some height as well because should one be spooked and decide to do a leap and there's a lid on it.... They may get injured....

These toads are terrestrial and don't really need a a huge water area imo. Only just a dish they can soak in there and make poop that's pretty much it. One that can at least hold 6of them at a time would be okay if you do end up getting 10. Since not all of them will be in the water dish at the very same moment.

Earthworms are great. I feed them as a main staple for most of my amphibians and they're in tip top shape. Infact I already had a few breed on me.

[Deku]

I haven't read much of what others said so I'm not sure if people already said this but umm here it goes:

You shouldn't feed a toad "monkey chow" even if it "could" eat it doesn't mean it "should". Avoid feeding frogs altogether because all frogs have toxins in their skin to some extent and not only that usually may harbor parasites or bacteria your toads may not be immune to.

As for foods; they eat a ton. I think one large cane toad could easily go through 25large worms. Mine does... Avoid chicks they're hard to consume for amphibians and not only that they may peck at the toad. Not really sure what would happen but I get a weird vibe when you said chicks. So as for mice I would only feed pinky mice once a month AS a treat(anything that can bite the toad should not be fed). Butterworms and waxworms are high in fat so feed with moderation(treat). Feed the toads as followed: anything below 4inches I would feed three times a week as much as they can eat within 30minutes or if the toad is shy you can extend that to atleast 10large earthworms or 20small dubias(dubias are already small), etc. Depends on size of the prey. As well as the toad can eat alot granted but if the thing looks super obese(toads look fat but there is a fine line between fat and obese) then slow down on feeding. This also applies on temp too. Higher temps give better metabolism imho, but still wouldn't go over the border of feeding....

Roaches are excellent feeders all around nutrition but there are many types of roaches too. Such as dubias, lobster roaches, hissers, etc... I'm not a roach user for several reasons(not related to nutrition or care of the animal more or less personal); but by all means use them if you can! They breed like crazy(some not as much-- but most do). Earthworms are high in proteins and low in fat so they also make a good staple diet.

But make sure to alternate between atleast 3-5prey items each feeding. I would avoid using fish-- even if you can breed them and even if by any chance they're clean. They don't provide much nutrition for a toad or so I heard and then again you never know your batch of fish could get sick and pass it on to the toad.

Crickets are okay feeders but should always be gut loaded a day prior to feeding.

As for ten toads? I wouldn't recommend ten toads to be honest... One toad poops alot, imagine alot of them. I love them but my honest opinion at most someone could own 5 large cane toads. Their space requirements and feeding habits plus the fact they're pooping machines doesn't make it easy. Toads usually don't move around that much even if given that much space(for an animal in general) but they still need space especially a bigger toad. Plus cane toads are slightly different since they're know to be more active at night IN THE WILD. I would give one toad atleast 2-3feet in length of space and in width atleast 2feet. That is my opinion though.

Remember in this hobby not everyone will agree with what you say or do. Half could agree or half could disagree or most could disagree or agree. You just have to find what works for you and the animal. If the animal has clean bill of health and in tip top shape then it's alright. Thriving and living are two different things. But a "living" animal could have a not so great bill of health and barely clinging to life. I mean example: I could get hit by a truck and be clinging to life. Does that mean I'm thriving? No. It means at the moment I'm living. My health won't be in great shape but it's still there.

Toads are different in behavior even in the same group. Example from my common NA toads I have 2 that are active and curious while one of them is shy and active at night only.

But in the end it's your call and all up to you on what you decide to do. I think they should be given some height as well because should one be spooked and decide to do a leap and there's a lid on it.... They may get injured....

These toads are terrestrial and don't really need a a huge water area imo. Only just a dish they can soak in there and make poop that's pretty much it. One that can at least hold 6of them at a time would be okay if you do end up getting 10. Since not all of them will be in the water dish at the very same moment.

Earthworms are great. I feed them as a main staple for most of my amphibians and they're in tip top shape. Infact I already had a few breed on me. All in all I don't really get why you're trying to have 10.

if you're trying to breed them-- don't. One pair can produce a mass number of them over a thousand imagine 10? Do you really think you will be able to rear all those tadpoles and then young toadlets that are eating machines? Unless you work for a museum or something you wouldn't be able to raise that many(the offsprings). Well that's my opinion. Unless you plant to use all the money you make on them and just living with simple necessities...

Either way if you really want to breed them just try a male and a female not like 5males and 5females. Make sure you know what you will do with the offsprings. It's illegal to release them in the wild anywhere and not only will you get arrested for life but I'm sure they will confiscate them and kill them if you end up releasing the offsprings... I say this because people tried to breed them over aussie and released them (purposely) to kill cane beetles and now the place is filled with them. The local use them for fun at the toads expense. Apparently they grew a sick taste of humor...

I hope I don't offend you but just wanting to highlight some of what I think to be important details. By no means I am no expert. I'm pretty much a regular hobbyist. I have cared for toads for a very long time but I'm not an expert on them I know the basics and some in depth stuff but I'm pretty sure someone like kurt could answer the questions more thoroughly as well. All in all do what you want; but always have a back up plan just in case you cannot keep them- I.e. for who they will go to, or what will happen to them, etc. Trust your own judgement and make sure you have a qualified reptile vet that is amphibian savvy. Don't rely on pet store information. Some "could" know what they're talking about but assuming "most" just "work there". Even when I ask them question they admit they just work there.


Good luck and I hope this helps...

[David Pinckney]

Sorry everybody, I have not checked this forum in a few days.

Hello Greenhorn. Do I plan on breeding them? Yes. Why a whole TEN! Because, it would be even more awesomer then one. Plus, I would need at least two to breed, and then that would be it. In order for me to have a continual population going, I will need more than just two to begin with. Otherwise, by the second generation I will be attempting to breed siblings. Then, their offspring will not only be siblings, but siblings that are already inbred! How many generations can that go on for? Even ten, as far as I know, would not provide enough genetic variation for the gene pool, but at least it would allow me to start off with five different frog families. That way, I could have four generations that are not inbred, and if I want to continue even further, I could just acquire more toads elsewhere; to add to my toad culture.

So Kröty, now you see why breeding from ten is better then breeding from two. Genomes are usually packed full of heritable diseases. Early acting ‘semi-lethal’ genes tend to get weeded out, and it’s a tautology that early acting ‘lethal’ genes are always weeded out. Children that die for genetic reasons are the exception to the rule, not the norm. Then, there are ‘late’ acting deleterious genes, both semi-lethal and even outright lethal, which can become ascendant in a gene pool, because their disastrous phenotypes do not manifest until their bearers have had enough time to have grandchildren, so the sifting mechanism of natural selection is left unable to discriminate against such genes. Not only that, but late acting deleterious genes can even be selected for, if they also have early acting effects that are adaptive. This is why there aren’t as many ‘youth’ related heritable diseases, and why every family you can find has a history of several ‘age’ related heritable diseases. It’s also one of the main reasons why (if nothing happens to kill you first) you are doomed to die of old age, no matter who you are. Among these nasty genes are ones which are, at least, recessive, so you need to have two copies of them, in order for their harmful effects to unfold. We are all chock-full of these genetic defects. The more inbred you are, the more likely you are to have a bunch of these horrible things in pairs.

This is the only explanation that I’ve ever encountered, as to why inbreeding results in an increased risk of failure to conceive, stillbirth, birth defects, and disadvantageous mutations. I don’t want any of that KRAPP happening to my pets! Successful inbreeding is apparently possible. It was done during the Victorian era, to create the breed of domestic white rats that are used in laboratories for experiments. The purpose was to control for variables, so that an experiment conducted on one rat would yield the same result when conducted on the next. They were inbred so much, that there was virtually no genetic variation between any two of them. Sibling couplings begat sibling couplings, which begat sibling couplings etc. etc., and the stock remained viable. I can only imagine that there was some process used, whereby heritable diseases were eliminated, before this un-branching family tree was made possible. It would be good to know how this is accomplished, because if you can do it to rats, I’m sure you can do it to frogs, and it would reduce the necessary scale of a frog breeding project.

And yes Kröty, I know that these toads will release several thousand eggs at once. Can I accommodate five thousand toads? Of course not, that’s okay. What I plan on doing is to just take a snippet of the egg strand, and destroy the rest. I anticipate that there might be a lot of frog lovers on this forum, who will jump out of their skin upon hearing that, but I would like for you to first consider, that that’s basically what would happen in the wild anyway. Why do you think they lay so many eggs? Only a small fraction of 1% of them, at most, are likely to survive. If they all wound up making it, then the worlds’ frog populations would increase exponentially, to no end! Second, these will only be eggs that have just recently been fertilized. It will be like an extremely early abortion, and involve zero froggy suffering. Lastly, and most importantly, it’s not right for us to just keep taking frogs from the wild, to support the trade. Especially since, exotic pet owning is becoming less exotic, and amphibian populations are declining. I know that the Cane Toad is an exception to this, but we should all start thinking about making exotic pet breeding as common, as say, dog breeding.

Kröty, it’s fantastic that you elaborated so much about the feeding details. It’s not only helpful to me, but to the other people on this forum (some of which already have frogs to care for). Of course, I know not to release animals into the wild! I know what could happen. And no, you didn’t offend me. And if you did… then the hell with me! You were just trying to help.

[Deku]

Sorry everybody, I have not checked this forum in a few days.

Hello Greenhorn. Do I plan on breeding them? Yes. Why a whole TEN! Because, it would be even more awesomer then one. Plus, I would need at least two to breed, and then that would be it. In order for me to have a continual population going, I will need more than just two to begin with. Otherwise, by the second generation I will be attempting to breed siblings. Then, their offspring will not only be siblings, but siblings that are already inbred! How many generations can that go on for? Even ten, as far as I know, would not provide enough genetic variation for the gene pool, but at least it would allow me to start off with five different frog families. That way, I could have four generations that are not inbred, and if I want to continue even further, I could just acquire more toads elsewhere; to add to my toad culture.

So Kröty, now you see why breeding from ten is better then breeding from two. Genomes are usually packed full of heritable diseases. Early acting ‘semi-lethal’ genes tend to get weeded out, and it’s a tautology that early acting ‘lethal’ genes are always weeded out. Children that die for genetic reasons are the exception to the rule, not the norm. Then, there are ‘late’ acting deleterious genes, both semi-lethal and even outright lethal, which can become ascendant in a gene pool, because their disastrous phenotypes do not manifest until their bearers have had enough time to have grandchildren, so the sifting mechanism of natural selection is left unable to discriminate against such genes. Not only that, but late acting deleterious genes can even be selected for, if they also have early acting effects that are adaptive. This is why there aren’t as many ‘youth’ related heritable diseases, and why every family you can find has a history of several ‘age’ related heritable diseases. It’s also one of the main reasons why (if nothing happens to kill you first) you are doomed to die of old age, no matter who you are. Among these nasty genes are ones which are, at least, recessive, so you need to have two copies of them, in order for their harmful effects to unfold. We are all chock-full of these genetic defects. The more inbred you are, the more likely you are to have a bunch of these horrible things in pairs.

This is the only explanation that I’ve ever encountered, as to why inbreeding results in an increased risk of failure to conceive, stillbirth, birth defects, and disadvantageous mutations. I don’t want any of that KRAPP happening to my pets! Successful inbreeding is apparently possible. It was done during the Victorian era, to create the breed of domestic white rats that are used in laboratories for experiments. The purpose was to control for variables, so that an experiment conducted on one rat would yield the same result when conducted on the next. They were inbred so much, that there was virtually no genetic variation between any two of them. Sibling couplings begat sibling couplings, which begat sibling couplings etc. etc., and the stock remained viable. I can only imagine that there was some process used, whereby heritable diseases were eliminated, before this un-branching family tree was made possible. It would be good to know how this is accomplished, because if you can do it to rats, I’m sure you can do it to frogs, and it would reduce the necessary scale of a frog breeding project.

And yes Kröty, I know that these toads will release several thousand eggs at once. Can I accommodate five thousand toads? Of course not, that’s okay. What I plan on doing is to just take a snippet of the egg strand, and destroy the rest. I anticipate that there might be a lot of frog lovers on this forum, who will jump out of their skin upon hearing that, but I would like for you to first consider, that that’s basically what would happen in the wild anyway. Why do you think they lay so many eggs? Only a small fraction of 1% of them, at most, are likely to survive. If they all wound up making it, then the worlds’ frog populations would increase exponentially, to no end! Second, these will only be eggs that have just recently been fertilized. It will be like an extremely early abortion, and involve zero froggy suffering. Lastly, and most importantly, it’s not right for us to just keep taking frogs from the wild, to support the trade. Especially since, exotic pet owning is becoming less exotic, and amphibian populations are declining. I know that the Cane Toad is an exception to this, but we should all start thinking about making exotic pet breeding as common, as say, dog breeding.

Kröty, it’s fantastic that you elaborated so much about the feeding details. It’s not only helpful to me, but to the other people on this forum (some of which already have frogs to care for). Of course, I know not to release animals into the wild! I know what could happen. And no, you didn’t offend me. And if you did… then the hell with me! You were just trying to help.

The wall is too much to read but I caught a glimpse of a few things. If you're planning to cut the strands and keep a few-- don't. You may disturb them too much by doing that... I'ved reared tadpoles before and had a problem when I did that... If you really really really want to do this... Just remember your reason for it and hopefully it's not one like "because it's cool" or "i want more cash". You won't make cash out of it. Infact you may loose some. Anywho. If it was up to me. I would then keep 2 sexed pairs and two additional females just in case... Then make a really large enclosure for them. Something like a wooden terrarium you would see made for tortoises but the terrarium being high enough they can't jump out of it.

This for them to be comfortable enough. In fact if you could make a pen that would be even better. Something around 5ft longx 3ft widex 2ft high is great for this! Just my opinion though because space is something animals appreciate and if they're happy and thriving they may mate.

After that make a really large pool about 2 or 3ft of that terrarium and atleast 10inches deep with plants and stuff for them to linger but space so they can swim around and lay eggs. make sure to put branches that are not from any SOFT wood trees so that the female doesn't drown in the process of egg laying.

When the eggs are laid make the pool off-limits and hopefully the eggs are in clean water that was cycled. When they hatch let them all hatch. Alot may die on you. The ones that don't let them morph. When they morph start dividing them into small groups of five. From that group observe and try to pick the desired traits such as rumbunctious ones that are not as shy as others. Any deformed toads humanely euthanize by putting them in a bag and in a freezer(as cruel as it may sound it is painless).

This is the true nature of being a breeder or so I have been told by several breeders at some herp shows. This is because you want to take out the lesser genes and keep the gene strong. Think of the goldfish. Why do you think it's so pretty?

Anywho. Keep in mind that you may not get buyers and I wouldn't start selling them until they are atleast 2-3inches big and already morphed.

This would be the scientific way of doing things with little to no human feelings towards the animal.

I do love these animals but that's pretty much the only way you could go about this imho. You don't want the bad batch to go into the wild and I think you live in cali? So you may want to do this in a special room that they will not be allowed to leave.

Word of the wise and a warning:

Should you release one of these critters into the wild be it accidentally or purposely ... Expect a huge fine and probably be arrested... Look at aussie. Nuff' said.

[David Pinckney]

Hey Kröty, or perhaps I should call you Deku.

Don’t cut the strand! Okay. I thought killing frogs, as opposed to eggs, would be too unnecessarily inhuman, to be acceptable. None the less, I still think that breeding takes more welfare for the animals into consideration, than does catching them all the time. I told you I’m not going to let them go! And no, my motivation isn’t to sell them either. The enclosure dimensions that you gave for the breeding cage is almost as big as what I was planning to keep all ten adults in. Is there a good book about toad breeding that anyone can recommend? Or, better yet, is there somewhere near me that I can go to, to gain experience or at least just watch frog breeding take place? Perhaps a commercial frog breeding business, here in the San Francisco bay area.

[Wormwood]

Simply by destroying 95% of eggs and keeping 5% you will have possibly selected the worse genetics of that mating. The reason toads and other amphibians are hardy in the wild is because only the strong/lucky ones survive into adulthood. By trashing the majority of the eggs you risk breeding a terrible line and making everything worth not.

Because it's "awesomer" is not a reason. I don't think you grasp the magnitude owning ten cane toads is. It's not like own snakes, feeding them once a week and leaving them in a box to breed and lay eggs. You'll need to change their tank every week because they are poop monsters. Healthy cane toads will eat like gluttons. I could easily, easily go through 24 earth worms a week for one adult cane toad. They are not social animals and need space, lots of space and probally even more to mate sucessfully (which I've never heard done) because toads are simply not profitable in the trade because they eat so much and take so long to grow from tads.

[David Pinckney]

Alright everybody, discarding eggs is a terrible idea. The only reason I thought of it is because I can’t care for thousands, and, it would clearly be more merciful to kill them before they become sentient beings. Owning frogs is not new to me. I know ten large toads would be expensive, and keep one very busy. That being said, there are people who work at pet stores, for instants, with far more animals to manage. And let’s not pretend that it wouldn’t be awesomer.

I have seen a frog farm on youtube, where huge frogs where being raised. The operation was on a scale far beyond what I could do. But producing toads can’t be impossible in principle. We should all hope.