What's wrong with Humperdink?

[MrFunkhouser]

Our WTF is not looking well and we are not sure what's wrong with him. When we got him 5 months ago he was a lovely classic jade colour at night and that dull brown during the day. Recently however, he's been constantly brown and just not 'looking' right, and more worryingly within the last week, he seems to have lost the ability to climb very well, sliding down surfaces he used to cling fine to, and is generally more clumsy.

There are other frogs in the same 45x45x60mm exo-terra vivarium, a false tomato frog called Gary, which was bought at the same time from a reputable shop (owned by a PHD-in-frogs bearing man) so I presume HE is not toxic. About 2 months ago we procured a Grey Tree Frog we named Squarepusher, and two weeks ago we bought two Common Tree Frogs called Nietzsche and Shylock. We're prepared for the possibility that the new frogs may be toxic to the WTF, and would appreciate if anyone could shed light on his debilitation.

Thanks in advance,

N & H

[coffeebaron]

Hey there, I'm fairly new to the amphibian keeping hobby, however from what I've learnt so far I think you'll find that your ecclectic mix of frogs all in the same enclosure, which is too small for that many frogs in my opinion. I keep Whites and a False Tomato, both seperate, and to give an idea, I've got the Whites, which are all of 2-4cm in size, in a 39mmx38mmx49mm tank. My Tomato Frog is in an Exo Terra Faunarium for now, till he is larger.

The frogs you've got all originate from different locales and climates, for the Whites and Tomato for example, they enjoy different temperature ranges and habitats. Although the Common (I presume American Green TF) and Grey's are similar, I would still do some more research into their individual prefferences and habitats.

Also what Temps/Humidity do you have them at? I would at the very least suggest seperating them into individual species enclosures (I appreciate this isn't always a practical solution due to cost/space)

Hope this is some help

[MrFunkhouser]

Hey there, I'm fairly new to the amphibian keeping hobby, however from what I've learnt so far I think you'll find that your ecclectic mix of frogs all in the same enclosure, which is too small for that many frogs in my opinion. I keep Whites and a False Tomato, both seperate, and to give an idea, I've got the Whites, which are all of 2-4cm in size, in a 39mmx38mmx49mm tank. My Tomato Frog is in an Exo Terra Faunarium for now, till he is larger.

The frogs you've got all originate from different locales and climates, for the Whites and Tomato for example, they enjoy different temperature ranges and habitats. Although the Common (I presume American Green TF) and Grey's are similar, I would still do some more research into their individual prefferences and habitats.

Also what Temps/Humidity do you have them at? I would at the very least suggest seperating them into individual species enclosures (I appreciate this isn't always a practical solution due to cost/space)

Hope this is some help

I published a glaring mistake; the tank is those measurements in cm, not mm. The humidity hovers around 70 and temp the same. I would have thought the tank would be fine for 5, it's quite spacious. If they had more room would this be better or will they poison each other regardless?

[coffeebaron]

Lol, easy mistake to make....and I think I followed suit! Should have read cm!

Well I would say the humidity is good, and the temps are similar- I keep my whites around 74-76, though speak to some and they will quote high 70's -80 for the hot spot, with a drop into high 60's at night. As for the Tomato, he is at a high of 74, but the cool end is nearer 68.

As for the size, if you take with a pinch what others say, 1 frog = 10 gallon's- your tank comes in around 30 gallons. Now i'd say this rule would apply to a decent sized adult whites, they will grow the largest out of your species. I would at the least seperate the Tomato Frog, he comes from Madagascar, as oppose to Australia/ New Guinea for the Whites, and the Americas/Canada for your Grey's/Common. The secretions in each species skins will be significally different as to cause considerable stress.

If your frogs are all small still, then you could utilise some very basic tubs/faunariums to keep costs low for now in order to seperate. Or maybe speaking to the guy you purchased them off and try and exchange them so you have just the one species

[mim]

yeh that terrarium is way too small for that many frogs. iv two whites in a 30cmX30cmX45cm and am thinkin im gonna need to go bigger once the frogs get older. general rule is as wes said 1 frog = 10 gallons (unsure of what that equates to in measurements tho). iv heard lots of ppl sayin not to mix species of frogs so id mabye try seperate them as like u say they could b toxic to each other but also they may physically attack one another. u may find that once u seperate them he may seem his 'normal self' again. i would try find someone who knows more about wot else it could b tho as like wes im pretty new to this.

[coffeebaron]

Thanks for chipping further advice in Mim, and I agree, maybe someone with more experience will come and offer further advice, though I must say, so far I've had more help from fellow beginers, not to say we're ill informed, just yet to have the wealth of experience with our chosen species.

[Badger]

Not just too small for that many frogs, but you can't keep multiple species of frogs in the same vivarium. All frogs are toxic to each other, no matter how serious. It is never ever a good idea to house different species together, I would recommend separating them as soon as possible. I'm sure that these two issues are what is causing your frog stress. I have 3 white's, and they are only kept with themselves. Plus, I believe the false tomato frog has different care requirements than the tree frogs. I have never kept a false tomato before, so I can't accurately comment on that. Lot's of people make the mistake of multi-species enclosures, but it eventually kills both frogs if left that way. I would keep no more than 3 white's in that size enclosure. Hope this helps, Dalton.

[Crystal6]

Our Whites Tree Frog is not looking well and we are not sure what's wrong with him. When we got him 5 months ago he was a lovely classic jade colour at night and that dull brown during the day. Recently however, he's been constantly brown and just not 'looking' right, and more worryingly within the last week, he seems to have lost the ability to climb very well, sliding down surfaces he used to cling fine to, and is generally more clumsy.

There are other frogs in the same 45x45x60mm exo-terra vivarium, a false tomato frog called Gary, which was bought at the same time from a reputable shop (owned by a PHD-in-frogs bearing man) so I presume HE is not toxic. About 2 months ago we procured a Grey Tree Frog we named Squarepusher, and two weeks ago we bought two Common Tree Frogs called Nietzsche and Shylock. We're prepared for the possibility that the new frogs may be toxic to the Whites Tree Frog, and would appreciate if anyone could shed light on his debilitation.

Thanks in advance,

N & H

To back up Dalton: Never keep several different species of frogs in the same cage. They are usually poison to each other and they can eat each other.
In fact... keeping two frogs of the same species together can be dangerous as well if they are of dramatically different sizes as, again they can eat each other. (Which creates the question: are Neitzsche and Shylock the same size?)

As Dalton said you should probably separate all the frogs ASAP. Perhaps have one cage for Gary, one cage for Phase for Squarepusher, one cage for Nietzche and Shylock and one cage for Humperdink. Keep in mind that different frogs generally require different aquarium sizes and set ups. Also keep in mind that the more frogs you have in one cage the bigger that cage must be.

[MrFunkhouser]

To back up Dalton: Never keep several different species of frogs in the same cage. They are usually poison to each other and they can eat each other.
In fact... keeping two frogs of the same species together can be dangerous as well if they are of dramatically different sizes as, again they can eat each other. (Which creates the question: are Neitzsche and Shylock the same size?)

As Dalton said you should probably separate all the frogs ASAP. Perhaps have one cage for Gary, one cage for Phase for Squarepusher, one cage for Nietzche and Shylock and one cage for Humperdink. Keep in mind that different frogs generally require different aquarium sizes and set ups. Also keep in mind that the more frogs you have in one cage the bigger that cage must be.

Nietzsche and Shylock are roughly the same size, the smallest is the grey tree frog but most have been together for 4 months without any attacks, in fact, we've seen the whites and tomato sleeping next to each other quite comfortably. I spoke to the shop owner who told me he has another customer who has a 3ft wide by 3ft high palidarium which has 3 milk frogs, 3 whites and 3 golden flying frogs all living together, and all positively thriving. He suggested that humperdink may just be stressed with a lack of space, i'm taking him in tomorrow so he can have a look.

Would anyone be interested in doing a swap if the toxicity issue needs to be addressed?!

[Shanny]

Yes, as a general rule you should not mix different types of frogs in one terrarium.. That alone can stress them out

[Badger]

Well, quite frankly he is misinformed. What you see as "sleeping together comfortably" is more likely asserting dominance over the other frog. Do not mix species, let alone mix them in that small of an enclosure.

[Crystal6]

Nietzsche and Shylock are roughly the same size, the smallest is the grey tree frog but most have been together for 4 months without any attacks, in fact, we've seen the whites and tomato sleeping next to each other quite comfortably. I spoke to the shop owner who told me he has another customer who has a 3ft wide by 3ft high palidarium which has 3 milk frogs, 3 whites and 3 golden flying frogs all living together, and all positively thriving. He suggested that humperdink may just be stressed with a lack of space, i'm taking him in tomorrow so he can have a look.

Would anyone be interested in doing a swap if the toxicity issue needs to be addressed?!

To be frank, you got lucky. Here's a link from the Firebelly Toad Article you might want to check out if you really want to house several different kinds of frogs together... Caudata Culture Articles - Species Mixing Disasters

This problem actually comes up quite frequently here. Here's so more topics on this forum that address it.
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...g-species.html
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...vironment.html
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ixing-zoo.html

I don't mean to be a pain. I'd just hate to see something bad happen to your pets. Especially when you acknowledge that one of them is already starting to get ill. Frogs tend to absorb things through their skin and thus having them in a cage with several others who are producing toxins is rarely a good idea... The only reason it works in the wild is because they have tons upon tons of space apart from one another and they aren't all trapped in a small space together at all hours of the day.