Water debate

[GrifTheGreat]

Well there you have it. Everyone who has personal experience and is very experienced with these frogs has pretty much answered you questions. Also there is no such thing as a friendly arguement. They always turn sour quick and usually lead to warnings and bans which no one wants. You asked for advice and opinions and you got them. If you want hard eveidence then that research should be done by you. That's part of being experienced. Sometimes you have to find the answers yourself and not have others do it for you. Its part of the learning process. Especially when it comes to these frogs and others. We are all still learning and probably will never stop.

[DVirginiana]

Well put.

[dsmalex97]

I believe I mentioned that I want to incorporate some kind of land mass. I don't even intend on leaving my pyxie in just water. In a month or so I will upgrade her cage size, and add land. It will be mostly water with a place to get out and dry off. I'm just thinking of setting it up as predominately water. This is what I wanted to do for the pac as well when he/she is older.

[GrifTheGreat]

I believe I mentioned that I want to incorporate some kind of land mass. I don't even intend on leaving my pyxie in just water. In a month or so I will upgrade her cage size, and add land. It will be mostly water with a place to get out and dry off. I'm just thinking of setting it up as predominately water. This is what I wanted to do for the pac as well when he/she is older.

Its not an ideal setup but as long as the water is cleaned constantly and the frog has a choice and no risk of injury or drowning it may be fine. Sounds really messy and a hassel to me though.

[dsmalex97]

Its not an ideal setup but as long as the water is cleaned constantly and the frog has a choice and no risk of injury or drowning it may be fine. Sounds really messy and a hassel to me though.

It probably is lol

But maybe there is a way to make it a little less messy, and still as effective. Maybe...hmm

But wouldn't it be ideal, because they have the option of a nice pool or somewhere to dry off and dig in?

[dsmalex97]

Well there you have it. Everyone who has personal experience and is very experienced with these frogs has pretty much answered you questions. Also there is no such thing as a friendly arguement. They always turn sour quick and usually lead to warnings and bans which no one wants. You asked for advice and opinions and you got them. If you want hard eveidence then that research should be done by you. That's part of being experienced. Sometimes you have to find the answers yourself and not have others do it for you. Its part of the learning process. Especially when it comes to these frogs and others. We are all still learning and probably will never stop.

So what are you saying then? I can't ask why without people people getting offended, and thinking I'm trying to "one up" them? Is this a dictatorship of frog care haha, gimme a break? I was just trying to compile facts and see if maybe there was some information on the matter via a forum member. I know there's always someone with that hidden link that connects it all together too, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. If this is bothering anyone then please just don't bother answering then because I'm in no way trying to offend anyone, or piss anyone off. I don't want to start any kind of fights. Personally, I like debate. I like sifting through information, and going back and forth with others to form my opinions. I also like forming new opinions, and new ideas. To me, without debate there wouldn't be half the discoveries made on this planet. By me asking why, or why not in this case I am "learning". If you are offended by debate, and can't not take it personal, then don't engage in one. I'm grateful for all your opinions and will continue to research the idea. Again, I am sorry if I annoyed any of you with my questions.

[GrifTheGreat]

So what are you saying then? I can't ask why without people people getting offended, and thinking I'm trying to "one up" them? Is this a dictatorship of frog care haha, gimme a break? I was just trying to compile facts and see if maybe there was some information on the matter via a forum member. I know there's always someone with that hidden link that connects it all together too, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. If this is bothering anyone then please just don't bother answering then because I'm in no way trying to offend anyone, or piss anyone off. I don't want to start any kind of fights. Personally, I like debate. I like sifting through information, and going back and forth with others to form my opinions. I also like forming new opinions, and new ideas. To me, without debate there wouldn't be half the discoveries made on this planet. By me asking why, or why not in this case I am "learning". If you are offended by debate, and can't not take it personal, then don't engage in one. I'm grateful for all your opinions and will continue to research the idea. Again, I am sorry if I annoyed any of you with my questions.

I'm not saying that you can't ask questions and no its not a dictatorship. Its just every time someone wants to ask questions and and gets an answer and if they don't like the answer then they ask why or question the answer it always ends up with someone going too far. Some people get annoyed and all the experienced owners will be annoyed if asked for advice and when given it they don't take it or want to argue about it. They just end very unfriendly so there are NO friendly arguements.

[dsmalex97]

I'm not saying that you can't ask questions and no its not a dictatorship. Its just every time someone wants to ask questions and and gets an answer and if they don't like the answer then they ask why or question the answer it always ends up with someone going too far. Some people get annoyed and all the experienced owners will be annoyed if asked for advice and when given it they don't take it or want to argue about it. They just end very unfriendly so there are NO friendly arguements.

You ever hear the phrase for arguments sake? Well there ya go, there is. I'm just trying to make an argument to either prove it right or wrong. It's looking like in this case I'm a little off with my idea's. Perfectly fine, but if you think I'm just going to roll over and say "well Griff(or whoever) said it's ok(or not ok) so I'm good." No, I'm going to ask where did you arrive at your answer. If that annoys you then perhaps you should ask yourself the question at hand lol. I'm not saying it does annoy you Griff, but just sayin' man that's all. I even remember stating that all the methods that almost all of you use we're 100% legit. I'm just maybe coming up with a new one. Maybe not lol. But I wouldn't do so without asking for all your opinions, and why.

[GrifTheGreat]

You ever hear the phrase for arguments sake? Well there ya go, there is. I'm just trying to make an argument to either prove it right or wrong. It's looking like in this case I'm a little off with my idea's. Perfectly fine, but if you think I'm just going to roll over and say "well Griff(or whoever) said it's ok(or not ok) so I'm good." No, I'm going to ask where did you arrive at your answer. If that annoys you then perhaps you should ask yourself the question at hand lol. I'm not saying it does annoy you Griff, but just sayin' man that's all. I even remember stating that all the methods that almost all of you use we're 100% legit. I'm just maybe coming up with a new one. Maybe not lol. But I wouldn't do so without asking for all your opinions, and why.

No worries I'm not annoyed its just eventually someone gets mad and goes too far. I at one time thought of having a small part of the tank be water and the rest land when I first started. Kind of like 75% land and 25% water but that idea for me dwindled away since that is a ver small body of water and a waste to try and filter or change without removing the substrate. I found a farely large water dish was so much easier to deal with. All I can say is you could test your idea. The only problem is experimenting with living things especially beloved pets and the experiment goes wrong you wind up with a lost pet and a broken heart and no one wants that. It saddens me every time I read a thread where a frog is sick and when we all respond its too late. I don't like to experiment with my family members. Especially when they are doing well already.

[pac]

Nice edvice but i would change to eco earth or paper towels like Ivoryreptiles

[dsmalex97]

Nice edvice but i would change to eco earth or paper towels like Ivoryreptiles

My Pac is currently on paper towels. This is just an idea for the future when he gets older.

[DVirginiana]

There are plastic water dishes manufactured for larger animals like monitors and stuff that you could stick in the frog's eco-earth. It'd give him plenty of water-space but you wouldn't have to worry about doing a 50-50 setup. They're easy to just pick up and clean out.

[IvoryReptiles]

You ever hear the phrase for arguments sake? Well there ya go, there is. I'm just trying to make an argument to either prove it right or wrong. It's looking like in this case I'm a little off with my idea's. Perfectly fine, but if you think I'm just going to roll over and say "well Griff(or whoever) said it's ok(or not ok) so I'm good." No, I'm going to ask where did you arrive at your answer. If that annoys you then perhaps you should ask yourself the question at hand lol. I'm not saying it does annoy you Griff, but just sayin' man that's all. I even remember stating that all the methods that almost all of you use we're 100% legit. I'm just maybe coming up with a new one. Maybe not lol. But I wouldn't do so without asking for all your opinions, and why.

I am in no way the Ultimate Guru of Frogs.
I am just a person who in partnership with her Husband has been breeding C. cranwelli for over 5 years now. We have acquired experience and knowledge through trial & error as well as great advice from others who had experience.
The difference between you & I is that when given advice by experienced people, I didn't argue with it. I did my research and combined it with that advice and went from there.
You have been given plenty of advice & some have even taken the time to give you reasons they didn't have to give for the advice they have given.
As I stated before, I have nothing to prove to you. And folks on here can tell you that I love a good debate.......but you are not debating, you are baiting people and deliberately being rude.

You have double-talked so much that you no longer even know what you have said. I didn't miss anything. I read your posts and responded. My methods are not the only viable ones. I could never state that with a straight face.
You get advice and ask "Why?" to every response like a 5 year old does to be facetious.
You do not offend me, you annoy me. Just being honest. I don't mind answering questions, or debating.....bring it on.

You said you planned to place your Pacman in an all water environment and said nothing about depth.....you did say that you would provide "stuff on the bottom for traction" ....the frog wouldn't need that if the water level is to stay only chin deep. A 50/50 land/water setup would be great, but alot of work keeping the water clean.....you already fussed about how quickly the water bowls become fouled and were a pain to clean so often, so keep that in mind.
Also, gravel isn't a great idea......they can & have been known to swallow it and it causes impactions that could kill the frog.
They have an instinct to lunge at anything that moves.....like sliding gravel. As ambush predators that are terrestrial, the instinct is to their advantage to hopefully get as much food as they can. In nature they have been known to lunge and get a mouthful of leaf litter because the stuff was disturbed by a breeze.

I am giving info trying to anticipate the "Why?"s

Do what you will, no one can make you do any differently. When your frog ends up dead because you felt like experimenting, don't expect any sympathy for yourself.......if any is given, it will be for the frog.

[dsmalex97]

I am in no way the Ultimate Guru of Frogs.
I am just a person who in partnership with her Husband has been breeding C. cranwelli for over 5 years now. We have acquired experience and knowledge through trial & error as well as great advice from others who had experience.
The difference between you & I is that when given advice by experienced people, I didn't argue with it. I did my research and combined it with that advice and went from there.
You have been given plenty of advice & some have even taken the time to give you reasons they didn't have to give for the advice they have given.
As I stated before, I have nothing to prove to you. And folks on here can tell you that I love a good debate.......but you are not debating, you are baiting people and deliberately being rude.

You have double-talked so much that you no longer even know what you have said. I didn't miss anything. I read your posts and responded. My methods are not the only viable ones. I could never state that with a straight face.
You get advice and ask "Why?" to every response like a 5 year old does to be facetious.
You do not offend me, you annoy me. Just being honest. I don't mind answering questions, or debating.....bring it on.

You said you planned to place your Pacman in an all water environment and said nothing about depth.....you did say that you would provide "stuff on the bottom for traction" ....the frog wouldn't need that if the water level is to stay only chin deep. A 50/50 land/water setup would be great, but alot of work keeping the water clean.....you already fussed about how quickly the water bowls become fouled and were a pain to clean so often, so keep that in mind.
Also, gravel isn't a great idea......they can & have been known to swallow it and it causes impactions that could kill the frog.
They have an instinct to lunge at anything that moves.....like sliding gravel. As ambush predators that are terrestrial, the instinct is to their advantage to hopefully get as much food as they can. In nature they have been known to lunge and get a mouthful of leaf litter because the stuff was disturbed by a breeze.

I am giving info trying to anticipate the "Why?"s

Do what you will, no one can make you do any differently. When your frog ends up dead because you felt like experimenting, don't expect any sympathy for yourself.......if any is given, it will be for the frog.

Wow...

How about, if you don't got anything nice to say don't say it at all. You are not an expert, and your 5 years experience means nothing to me just so ya know. You couldn't even point me in the direction of any kind of study, just "your own personal experience". Which is fine, but theres really no need to get edgy about it. And did you really think I had a frog in a tank full of water rofl? Like...really? And seriously, you didn't read the whole thread. There's no way you did. It's all there smarty pants, READ. You obviously missed a lot, because all your misunderstanding are written down. Go back and look, and if you really need me to I can quote all of the posts I made that you "forgot". Get your glasses prescription checked...I have been given advice, yes. And guess what? I am taking it. I wanted to know how my idea was bad, and I wanted to know why. This to me seems like a pretty simple request. Especially one from a new comer. I'm a five year old child? HAHAHA!! Look who's pmsing over frog forums...

How am I being rude at all(maybe that last part was out of line, maybe not)? Every time I ask a question I get asked why I'm asking, or get reamed for asking why at all haha! I thanked everyone(including you) for their input, and said nothing in any shape or form that was rude(up until now)...

"You said you planned to place your Pacman in an all water environment and said nothing about depth.....you did say that you would provide "stuff on the bottom for traction" ....the frog wouldn't need that if the water level is to stay only chin deep." -It doesn't need it, but it's a lot easier for them to grip. Glass/plastic are smooth no? Ever hear the term "slippery when wet?" Obviously not. So even if they can touch, when the go to move their legs, sometimes they "slip". The ground is still slippery due to it being a completely smooth surface in case you wanted to know why...lol

"A 50/50 land/water setup would be great, but alot of work keeping the water clean.....you already fussed about how quickly the water bowls become fouled and were a pain to clean so often, so keep that in mind." -Umm, filter? Derrrrrrrrrr

"Also, gravel isn't a great idea......they can & have been known to swallow it and it causes impaction that could kill the frog.
They have an instinct to lunge at anything that moves.....like sliding gravel. As ambush predators that are terrestrial, the instinct is to their advantage to hopefully get as much food as they can. In nature they have been known to lunge and get a mouthful of leaf litter because the stuff was disturbed by a breeze." -Your reading skills have yet to impress me. HE IS ON PAPER TOWELS!!!!! I forgot though, you read that and are fully aware I changed him over lol. I guess your just posting this because you like reading your own posts.

On the real Ivory, I won't be responding to anymore of your little tantrums so do yourself a favor and forget I exist on this forum, because I want 0 from you from now on.

[GrifTheGreat]

Wow...

How about, if you don't got anything nice to say don't say it at all. You are not an expert, and your 5 years experience means nothing to me just so ya know. You couldn't even point me in the direction of any kind of study, just "your own personal experience". Which is fine, but theres really no need to get edgy about it. And did you really think I had a frog in a tank full of water rofl? Like...really? And seriously, you didn't read the whole thread. There's no way you did. It's all there smarty pants, READ. You obviously missed a lot, because all your misunderstanding are written down. Go back and look, and if you really need me to I can quote all of the posts I made that you "forgot". Get your glasses prescription checked...I have been given advice, yes. And guess what? I am taking it. I wanted to know how my idea was bad, and I wanted to know why. This to me seems like a pretty simple request. Especially one from a new comer. I'm a five year old child? HAHAHA!! Look who's pmsing over frog forums...

How am I being rude at all(maybe that last part was out of line, maybe not)? Every time I ask a question I get asked why I'm asking, or get reamed for asking why at all haha! I thanked everyone(including you) for their input, and said nothing in any shape or form that was rude(up until now)...

"You said you planned to place your Pacman in an all water environment and said nothing about depth.....you did say that you would provide "stuff on the bottom for traction" ....the frog wouldn't need that if the water level is to stay only chin deep." -It doesn't need it, but it's a lot easier for them to grip. Glass/plastic are smooth no? Ever hear the term "slippery when wet?" Obviously not. So even if they can touch, when the go to move their legs, sometimes they "slip". The ground is still slippery due to it being a completely smooth surface in case you wanted to know why...lol

"A 50/50 land/water setup would be great, but alot of work keeping the water clean.....you already fussed about how quickly the water bowls become fouled and were a pain to clean so often, so keep that in mind." -Umm, filter? Derrrrrrrrrr

"Also, gravel isn't a great idea......they can & have been known to swallow it and it causes impaction that could kill the frog.
They have an instinct to lunge at anything that moves.....like sliding gravel. As ambush predators that are terrestrial, the instinct is to their advantage to hopefully get as much food as they can. In nature they have been known to lunge and get a mouthful of leaf litter because the stuff was disturbed by a breeze." -Your reading skills have yet to impress me. HE IS ON PAPER TOWELS!!!!! I forgot though, you read that and are fully aware I changed him over lol. I guess your just posting this because you like reading your own posts.

On the real Ivory, I won't be responding to anymore of your little tantrums so do yourself a favor and forget I exist on this forum, because I want 0 from you from now on.

Now is where you need to stop imediately. This is why I said there is no such thing as a friendly arguement. This should be the end of this thread and no more posts should be made here. Every time people as you say (DEBATE) it turns out exactly like this. Maybe next time you should find a better way to ask peoples opinions on a subject.

Its just completely rediculous that to fight and argue for sport. Next time no friendly arguements. They end like this. No more bashing and no more argueing before someone gets banned. Better I warn you than John.

[DVirginiana]

Wow...

How about, if you don't got anything nice to say don't say it at all. You are not an expert, and your 5 years experience means nothing to me just so ya know. You couldn't even point me in the direction of any kind of study, just "your own personal experience". Which is fine, but theres really no need to get edgy about it. And did you really think I had a frog in a tank full of water rofl? Like...really? And seriously, you didn't read the whole thread. There's no way you did. It's all there smarty pants, READ. You obviously missed a lot, because all your misunderstanding are written down. Go back and look, and if you really need me to I can quote all of the posts I made that you "forgot". Get your glasses prescription checked...I have been given advice, yes. And guess what? I am taking it. I wanted to know how my idea was bad, and I wanted to know why. This to me seems like a pretty simple request. Especially one from a new comer. I'm a five year old child? HAHAHA!! Look who's pmsing over frog forums...

How am I being rude at all(maybe that last part was out of line, maybe not)? Every time I ask a question I get asked why I'm asking, or get reamed for asking why at all haha! I thanked everyone(including you) for their input, and said nothing in any shape or form that was rude(up until now)...

"You said you planned to place your Pacman in an all water environment and said nothing about depth.....you did say that you would provide "stuff on the bottom for traction" ....the frog wouldn't need that if the water level is to stay only chin deep." -It doesn't need it, but it's a lot easier for them to grip. Glass/plastic are smooth no? Ever hear the term "slippery when wet?" Obviously not. So even if they can touch, when the go to move their legs, sometimes they "slip". The ground is still slippery due to it being a completely smooth surface in case you wanted to know why...lol

"A 50/50 land/water setup would be great, but alot of work keeping the water clean.....you already fussed about how quickly the water bowls become fouled and were a pain to clean so often, so keep that in mind." -Umm, filter? Derrrrrrrrrr

"Also, gravel isn't a great idea......they can & have been known to swallow it and it causes impaction that could kill the frog.
They have an instinct to lunge at anything that moves.....like sliding gravel. As ambush predators that are terrestrial, the instinct is to their advantage to hopefully get as much food as they can. In nature they have been known to lunge and get a mouthful of leaf litter because the stuff was disturbed by a breeze." -Your reading skills have yet to impress me. HE IS ON PAPER TOWELS!!!!! I forgot though, you read that and are fully aware I changed him over lol. I guess your just posting this because you like reading your own posts.

On the real Ivory, I won't be responding to anymore of your little tantrums so do yourself a favor and forget I exist on this forum, because I want 0 from you from now on.

Yeahh, this conversation isn't productive at all at this point...

Just as a bit of advice for the future though.. When you "ask why" as you put it, you don't come across as genuinely curious. Most of your posts on this thread read very confrontational, and as if you are claiming that your idea is backed by some sort of reasonable data, be it personal experience, scientific studies, ect. when it was really just an idea. 'Questioning' the validity of tried and proven husbandry methods in that way is going to make people angry, especially if they really know what they're doing and are giving sound advice. Even reading back through things, it's hard to be 100% clear on how you house you frogs now, how they used to be housed, and what you were suggesting as a possible new way of keeping them.

Even with a filter, you'd probably be doing bi-weekly 100% water changes to keep a 50-50 setup clean if your pacman spent much time in its water between shed, cocofiber, and poo getting thrown in there. There's nothing wrong with the idea as far as frog-safety goes, but no doubt about it it'd be a pain in the neck. That's why most everyone just dumps the water bowl on a daily basis.