Water debate

[Sublime]

Yeah, those are good comparison shots. However; will you agree that african bullfrogs are can stay afloat, swim longer, swim better, and subermerge longer than a pacman? If the water level is within reach of them being able to touch the bottom with the top portion of their body sticking out, then I can't see anything wrong with your setup you want to do with your pacman. Maybe you could fit some sponge material on one side of the tank for him or her to rest on or get out of the water if they desire.

[dsmalex97]

Honestly, I can't say that yet because I have yet to really see my pac in a water setup like my Pyxie. He had a nice amount of water, but I made sure to add lots of little things for him to grab on and stay above water. I did this because I wasn't to knowledgeable on their swimming ability in comparison to Pyxie's. But from what I observed my Pac seemed fine in the water. Stayed afloat just fine and never really used the things I had in there for him to prevent drowning. I can't say it was better or worse. As long as they can touch and keep there head above water it seems to be ok. I would like to find some kind of way to offer a nice docking zone, and a way to give the bottom some grip.

Thought this was a cool shot. Found it on google. Ornate Horned Frog located at a zoo (forgot which one lol).

[IvoryReptiles]

Honestly, I can't say that yet because I have yet to really see my pac in a water setup like my Pyxie. He had a nice amount of water, but I made sure to add lots of little things for him to grab on and stay above water. I did this because I wasn't to knowledgeable on their swimming ability in comparison to Pyxie's. But from what I observed my Pac seemed fine in the water. Stayed afloat just fine and never really used the things I had in there for him to prevent drowning. I can't say it was better or worse. As long as they can touch and keep there head above water it seems to be ok. I would like to find some kind of way to offer a nice docking zone, and a way to give the bottom some grip.

Which is it? You can't seem to keep your stories straight and that may be the reason I am getting a little frustrated.
Either you have or have not had your Pac in water. First you say you haven't done it yet and then go on to say that when you had it in water it was fine.

And since you don't have the experience & I do......maybe the asked for advice is something you could at least listen to. Pyxies are able to swim......watch your Pac carefully in the water....it struggles....it isn't graceful like most amphibians who are comfortable in a water environment are. I am just wondering why you would bother to place the frog in a situation that might be harmful to it. In the end, it's your animal and no one can tell you how to keep it.

Like I stated before, I was just trying to help since you have stated more than once that you haven't much experience.

[dsmalex97]

Which is it? You can't seem to keep your stories straight and that may be the reason I am getting a little frustrated.
Either you have or have not had your Pac in water. First you say you haven't done it yet and then go on to say that when you had it in water it was fine.

And since you don't have the experience & I do......maybe the asked for advice is something you could at least listen to. Pyxies are able to swim......watch your Pac carefully in the water....it struggles....it isn't graceful like most amphibians who are comfortable in a water environment are. I am just wondering why you would bother to place the frog in a situation that might be harmful to it. In the end, it's your animal and no one can tell you how to keep it.

Like I stated before, I was just trying to help since you have stated more than once that you haven't much experience.

You missed a couple things.

"Honestly, I can't say that yet because I have yet to really see my pac in a water setup like my Pyxie." - Key part you missed was that I compared it to my Pyxie's setup which is all water at the moment.



"There we're multiple times I caught my pac fully submerged when I approached his tank when I had the water/land setup to evade me lol." - I stated that I kept him in a land/water setup where my pyxie is all shallow water.

I was just saying that I haven't experimented keeping him in a complete water setup yet, and don't know if they are as comfortable as the Pyxie's in the water.

I am listening, but that doesn't mean that you could be missing something. Once again, I in no way am arguing with the current methods of keeping these animals. But you're just dismissing what I am asking, and saying your methods are the end all solution to keeping them. And I 100% agree that how you, and most people on here keep them is fine. All I'm simply doing is asking for proof, and/or opinions on the matter that water is as bad your making it seem. My Pyxie is far from graceful but does that mean she isn't equipped for the water? Absolutely not. And when I put my Ornate in the water, I see no struggling at all. I do see a fat frog with small legs doing its best to be a "frog" lol, but it still holds its own. And hold on here. How is putting a "frog" in a shallow pool of water harmful? There not being put in a fish tank of water, but just something for them to sit in. I'm not seeing how this is harmful. Once again, your opinion is much appreciated. Sorry for the mix up.

[dsmalex97]

Another thought....

I mean, my Pyxie isn't really swimming haha! She's walking but the water makes her light so she can kind of swim/run through the water haha. I don't think they are good swimmers either, but just like to be in the water. So in theory there not swimming just sitting in water lol

[GrifTheGreat]

Ill jump in here to say this. Pacmans or frogs of the family Ceratophrys are terrestrial. They spend 90% of their entire life on land burrowed in the forest floor. If they were anywhere near aquatic or semi-aquatic they would live and spend most of their lives in water which they do not. Their behavior and life-style is very simiar to that of toads which only go to water to breed as do Pacmans. They need substrate to burrow in thus is their natural habitat and behavior. To feel secure they need this. They do not sleep in their water dish. They like to soak but do not like to be in water all the time. I have 2 Cranwellis and neither use their water dishes almost at. All. Grif's is quite wide and could almost fit 2 of her in it and she is quite large. There is a reason why Pyxies are aptly named African (BULL FROGS). They are Semi Aquatic and spend 60/40 land and water so it doesn't affect them as much.

Just because you found random photos of a pyxie in grass and an ornate pacman in water does NOT justify nor prove that an all water setup for a Ceratophrys frog is the way to go. They don't live that way and so it is not and ideal setup for one to live in.

Yes they do have similar shape/have teeth/burrow/and puff up with air but are in no means actually similar. They have a completely different habitat and lifestyle. Just because one frog was in the water a lot doesn't mean another will like it. Also your frog swimming with its head under the water was probably due to its feet slipping on the bottom of the tank and it leaning forward because of it not being able to gain traction. I've seen my do this. They are horrible swimmers. Plus if they were meant to be in water their nostrils would close shut like aquatic and semi-aquatic frogs do. Their do not.

[DVirginiana]

To answer your question about whether the two species are really that physically different: Yes.
Pacman frogs have much lower muscle mass, shorter hind legs, and are in general not as hardy as Pyxies. Remember, in the wild, African Bullfrog males will actually chase and attack large animals to keep them from disturbing their eggs, and even sometimes have to go overland a pretty good distance to find suitable mating pools. The muscles that make this possible are what make them better swimmers than pacmans. Pacmans in the wild spend the majority of their time in moist burrows, and never have to travel very far even to get to mating pools since they live in rainforests. There is nothing to say that the pac in the photo you posted was 1) in the wild and 2) there for some reason other than breeding. As for the zoo picture... Well, zoos often display animals in aesthetically pleasing setups during visiting hours. If they gave the pac a coco-fiber setup no one would ever see much but the eyes! Also, the fact that there are so many small rocks in with a large healthy pac makes me think that it is probably removed to a different setup for feeding and after zoo hours. They can do this by having a sliding door at the back of the viewing setup so that the animal only has to move a short distance to get to its night-time, stress-free enclosure and doesn't stress it out like actually changing locations would. Not saying that that's for sure what they're doing there, but it seems likely...

My pac soaks in his water far less now that I've cling-wrapped part of his enclosure top to keep humidity in. If you had a pac that was spending all its time soaking and almost none burrowing, I would wonder if the ambient humidity might have been a bit too low for it.

[dsmalex97]

To answer your question about whether the two species are really that physically different: Yes.
Pacman frogs have much lower muscle mass, shorter hind legs, and are in general not as hardy as Pyxies. Remember, in the wild, African Bullfrog males will actually chase and attack large animals to keep them from disturbing their eggs, and even sometimes have to go overland a pretty good distance to find suitable mating pools. The muscles that make this possible are what make them better swimmers than pacmans. Pacmans in the wild spend the majority of their time in moist burrows, and never have to travel very far even to get to mating pools since they live in rainforests. There is nothing to say that the pac in the photo you posted was 1) in the wild and 2) there for some reason other than breeding. As for the zoo picture... Well, zoos often display animals in aesthetically pleasing setups during visiting hours. If they gave the pac a coco-fiber setup no one would ever see much but the eyes! Also, the fact that there are so many small rocks in with a large healthy pac makes me think that it is probably removed to a different setup for feeding and after zoo hours. They can do this by having a sliding door at the back of the viewing setup so that the animal only has to move a short distance to get to its night-time, stress-free enclosure and doesn't stress it out like actually changing locations would. Not saying that that's for sure what they're doing there, but it seems likely...

My pac soaks in his water far less now that I've cling-wrapped part of his enclosure top to keep humidity in. If you had a pac that was spending all its time soaking and almost none burrowing, I would wonder if the ambient humidity might have been a bit too low for it.

Lol, the pictures we're just for fun. I'm aware that there is no way to prove where they we're taken etc.

Your argument is good, and I can see that the Pyxie's might be better swimmers because of it. But my guy definitely didn't have a humidity issue I can assure you that. I used basically all water/gravel/moss. I used the gravel and moss to create a ramp for him to get out. The tank was soaked all the time lol. I think he just really liked the water, simple lol.

[Capojames]

IvoryReptiles is 100% right. u cant let pacman frog be housed in a full water setup it will drowned.
like mark said bullfrogs are a totally diffrent frog. its like night and day. u cant compare them.

dsmalex97 do ur home work before getting a pacman.

[dsmalex97]

Ill jump in here to say this. Pacmans or frogs of the family Ceratophrys are terrestrial. They spend 90% of their entire life on land burrowed in the forest floor. If they were anywhere near aquatic or semi-aquatic they would live and spend most of their lives in water which they do not. Their behavior and life-style is very simiar to that of toads which only go to water to breed as do Pacmans. They need substrate to burrow in thus is their natural habitat and behavior. To feel secure they need this. They do not sleep in their water dish. They like to soak but do not like to be in water all the time. I have 2 Cranwellis and neither use their water dishes almost at. All. Grif's is quite wide and could almost fit 2 of her in it and she is quite large. There is a reason why Pyxies are aptly named African (BULL FROGS). They are Semi Aquatic and spend 60/40 land and water so it doesn't affect them as much.

Just because you found random photos of a pyxie in grass and an ornate pacman in water does NOT justify nor prove that an all water setup for a Ceratophrys frog is the way to go. They don't live that way and so it is not and ideal setup for one to live in.

Yes they do have similar shape/have teeth/burrow/and puff up with air but are in no means actually similar. They have a completely different habitat and lifestyle. Just because one frog was in the water a lot doesn't mean another will like it. Also your frog swimming with its head under the water was probably due to its feet slipping on the bottom of the tank and it leaning forward because of it not being able to gain traction. I've seen my do this. They are horrible swimmers. Plus if they were meant to be in water their nostrils would close shut like aquatic and semi-aquatic frogs do. Their do not.

Those pictures we're just comparing body mass, and structure. Sorry if they came off biased :]

My pacman spent days in the water when given the option, so he obviously slept in it. And he was diving to swim to the other side of the tank he was never really reaching or slipping. He also had the gravel to grab onto so he definitely wasn't slipping.

Also, all you guys seem to have some kind of scientific evidence that they are always found on the ground? I can't seem to find any kind of field study on them at all. So are most of you basing your idea for this on just hear say, and no actual study on their environment. I want to read something that was from a study, not a caresheet. And the study should be of a wide range of locations, not just one locale. I just find the same caresheets and other small little articles which could be way off/outdated for all we know. All say they are a terrestrial frog, often found in SHALLOW POOLS OF WATER. Or terrestrial frog found close to water etc. I can't find a straight answer. This also goes for Pyxie's. Almost everything I read says nothing about them being aquatic either just terrestrial, but they are totally fine with it.

Now, if they do everything like toads then why aren't they called toads? Is it because there maybe an aquatic background to them?

So you guys are telling me no one on here keeps them in a shallow water type setup? I could have sworn I remember someone having a room full of water setups for pacs...I wish I can remember argh!

[GrifTheGreat]

They are like toads because they're terrestrial and they aren called toads because they are a frog. Frogs and toads are different. They are both similar because they both are Anurans. Which is a classification of frogs and toads. I have a couple books that mention Horned Frogs and their habitat as well as behavior. If you want a study you'll have to find a Herpetological site.

[Capojames]

Pacman Care Sheet

Description: The Pacman species of frog has a very large mouth much like the video game character.
Lifespan: 5 to 7 years
Average Size: 8 inches
Origin: South America


Feeding
Do not feed your Pacman frog by hand because it will bite anything that it thinks is food. Crickets make great food for Pacman frogs but they can even eat food as large as pinky mice or fresh fish. Calcium and multivitamin supplements should be dusted on the food of your Pacman frog about once a week. Pacman frogs love to eat so be careful not to put too much food in their habitat or they will eat it all even if they do not need that much. This can lead to your Pacman frog quickly becoming overweight.

Habitat
Humidity: You should mist your Pacman frogs habitat once or twice per day to obtain a fairly high level of humidity.

Lighting: Between 8 to 10 hours of fluorescent light should be provided to all Pacman frogs. If you give it light for much more than this on a daily basis it will have trouble eating which can obviously be very dangerous to its health.

Physical Design: As with most frogs the Pacman frog is likely to escape if it does not have a secure lid placed on its enclosure. An aquarium tank will suffice but it should not have a solid lid that does not allow air circulation.

Size: A 10 to 15 gallon tank should be sufficient for an adult Pacman frog. Any smaller than this and the frog will not have enough room to move around and may feel stressed.

Temperature: A temperature range of between 75 degrees F to 85 degrees F is appropriate for Pacman frogs.

[GrifTheGreat]

Well there you have it. Everyone who has personal experience and is very experienced with these frogs has pretty much answered you questions. Also there is no such thing as a friendly arguement. They always turn sour quick and usually lead to warnings and bans which no one wants. You asked for advice and opinions and you got them. If you want hard eveidence then that research should be done by you. That's part of being experienced. Sometimes you have to find the answers yourself and not have others do it for you. Its part of the learning process. Especially when it comes to these frogs and others. We are all still learning and probably will never stop.

[DVirginiana]

Those pictures we're just comparing body mass, and structure. Sorry if they came off biased :]

My pacman spent days in the water when given the option, so he obviously slept in it. And he was diving to swim to the other side of the tank he was never really reaching or slipping. He also had the gravel to grab onto so he definitely wasn't slipping.

Also, all you guys seem to have some kind of scientific evidence that they are always found on the ground? I can't seem to find any kind of field study on them at all. So are most of you basing your idea for this on just hear say, and no actual study on their environment. I want to read something that was from a study, not a caresheet. And the study should be of a wide range of locations, not just one locale. I just find the same caresheets and other small little articles which could be way off/outdated for all we know. All say they are a terrestrial frog, often found in SHALLOW POOLS OF WATER. Or terrestrial frog found close to water etc. I can't find a straight answer. This also goes for Pyxie's. Almost everything I read says nothing about them being aquatic either just terrestrial, but they are totally fine with it.

Now, if they do everything like toads then why aren't they called toads? Is it because there maybe an aquatic background to them?

So you guys are telling me no one on here keeps them in a shallow water type setup? I could have sworn I remember someone having a room full of water setups for pacs...I wish I can remember argh!

Do a bit of research; check out the source links at the bottom of these species' wikipedia pages, get on google scholar, ect. My pac occasionally sleeps in his water as well, but the majority of his time is spent in dirt. Just wondering, what was the humidity of his tank? They will also self-regulate by soaking if they have shedding difficulties or constipation, which is possibly the reason yours was spending so much time in the water. Also, keep in mind that it could just seem like it was in the water a lot based on how often/when you were observing it.

The pacman frog is primarily terrestrial. Yes, they need water and high humidity. Yes, they are often found in pools of shallow water. That doesn't mean that it is a suitable long-term habitat for them. On any given day my dog can be found in a shallow pool of water, but she's definitely terrestrial lol. It's not difficult for a species living in the tropics to find a shallow puddle and sit in it for a while. Honestly, the reason that they are 'found' in these puddles in field studies, is probably because that is where they are the most visible. How many completely burrowed pacs is a researcher likely to find out walking through the rainforest? Not many. They are most easily found and studied during mating season, when they are usually chilling out in shallow puddles, waiting to make baby pacs and maybe even eat their mates afterwards. You know, fun wet-season frog activities.

Not to sound snippy, but the reason you aren't finding any sources describing these animals as 'aquatic' is because they simply aren't. They need water, but they don't live in it. I'm glad your pixie recovered, but you're basing your observations of "they are totally fine with it" (with "it" being an aquatic setup) off of one animal for a fairly short period of time. If you keep your pyxie in a no-land setup for the rest of its life, I think you will begin to see some serious repercussions. It might take awhile; I can't think of any common pet amphibian much hardier than the pyxie, but having no land will eventually begin to stress it.

Also, I believe I remember the setups you were talking about. They were not totally aquatic; the frogs had a pad to climb out of the water on and nothing to burrow in. If I recall correctly, that setup idea was criticized on here. There is a reason people recommend the setups they do. It's because that's what the animals prefer in the wild. If pacs and pyxies preferred to spend all or even most of their time in the water then they would live in year-round ponds and rivers, not seasonal pools and puddles. Not trying to sound harsh, but you aren't really backing up your POV with more than a very limited personal experience, and if you're recommending a new husbandry method for a type of animal, there should be some other background research to accompany it.