Water debate

[IvoryReptiles]

The C. cranwelli and most of the frogs called Pacman Frogs are NOT aquatic frogs. If placed in a completely aquatic environment without access to dry land, they can & will drown. There is a reason those of us who breed them tell people to give them a soaking bowl/dish that holds enough water to reach the chin and no higher.
If you want to give him a shallow "pond" in his enclosure, that's great. But if they get in a spot where they cannot get to the surface or land easily, you risk drowning them. They enjoy a soak, but deeper waters are utilized only for mating and even then, shallow pools or the shallow edges of a pool is where they mate.
Good Luck and please do post some photos of your set-up.

[dsmalex97]

How could they drown if the water doesn't go above their nose? I mean Pacs and Pyxie's are different, but really have a very similar body structure. I understand they aren't like American Bullfrogs in terms of swimming talent, but they do seem to enjoy sitting in water. I had my Pac in a land/water setup, but changed it. Reason being because the filter I was using for the water section wasn't doing a good enough job for me. He was spending probably 75% of his time in the water, and I didn't want him getting sick from dirty water. I now have my pac on wet paper towels, and he's comfortable for now. I don't think a water setup for a baby is a great idea, but for sub-adults/adults I think it could be feasible. My pyxie has had no access to land for the last couple of weeks and is fine. I plan on adding some land for her, but not until I get a bigger tank. When my pac had access to a lot of water he used it all, and I found him swimming underwater across the tank on numerous occasions. I think we underestimate how much they actually like water. They often use the water dish to poo or pee in, and that renders it useless. I'm sure they don't like sitting in a pool of their own pee/poo, and don't stick around for too long once they do. I think the big question here is if given lots clean fresh water to soak in daily, what would the frog do? Sit in the water, or sit in hole it dug for itself? My pac seemed to come out to sit in his moss for periods, but almost always returned to the water. I would say he would stay in the water for a couple of days, and then emerge for one on average. So that alone kind of proved it to me that they really love a good thorough soak/swim. Isn't there someone on here that keeps them in water? I thought I remember seeing a picture of a room with a bunch of pacs in water setups. I could be wrong. But I found this picture of what looks to be a wild pac sitting in a....


POND!! lol

[dsmalex97]

Comparison shots





How could you say that their body types aren't almost identical lol? They're fat belly's with a mouth, and arms/legs! Neither are meant to be as agile as the American Bullfrog(or other aquatics), but that doesn't mean they don't prefer water. Maybe not prefer, but definitely appreciate a good swim/soak. I mean they we're born there after all haha

[IvoryReptiles]

How could they drown if the water doesn't go above their nose? I mean Pacs and Pyxie's are different, but really have a very similar body structure. I understand they aren't like American Bullfrogs in terms of swimming talent, but they do seem to enjoy sitting in water. I had my Pac in a land/water setup, but changed it. Reason being because the filter I was using for the water section wasn't doing a good enough job for me. He was spending probably 75% of his time in the water, and I didn't want him getting sick from dirty water. I now have my pac on wet paper towels, and he's comfortable for now. I don't think a water setup for a baby is a great idea, but for sub-adults/adults I think it could be feasible. My pyxie has had no access to land for the last couple of weeks and is fine. I plan on adding some land for her, but not until I get a bigger tank. When my pac had access to a lot of water he used it all, and I found him swimming underwater across the tank on numerous occasions. I think we underestimate how much they actually like water. They often use the water dish to poo or pee in, and that renders it useless. I'm sure they don't like sitting in a pool of their own pee/poo, and don't stick around for too long once they do. I think the big question here is if given lots clean fresh water to soak in daily, what would the frog do? Sit in the water, or sit in hole it dug for itself? My pac seemed to come out to sit in his moss for periods, but almost always returned to the water. I would say he would stay in the water for a couple of days, and then emerge for one on average. So that alone kind of proved it to me that they really love a good thorough soak/swim. Isn't there someone on here that keeps them in water? I thought I remember seeing a picture of a room with a bunch of pacs in water setups. I could be wrong. But I found this picture of what looks to be a wild pac sitting in a....


POND!! lol

For one, the frog in your photo is an Ornate. I stated C. cranwelli as not being great swimmers.
In your original post, you didn't say the water available in your setup was only nose deep. As for the frogs using the water bowls to poop & pee in, you're right......and when they do, you change it and place fresh water in the bowl. We breed them, so we have quite a few to deal with at any given time. I am not arguing with you, just stating my own experiences. We keep most of ours in tubs on paper towels too.......we clean them every day, sometimes more that twice a day. I figure if you can't bother to provide a clean environment for them, then you shouldn't bother keeping them.......

You originally asked for opinions, I gave mine. If you really don't want opinions, why bother asking for them in the first place?
We have tried all kinds of different setups to see what they were most comfortable with, because in the end, the frogs are what matter, right? Our frogs are healthy & happy. I'm not here to prove anything or compete. Just to share information & experience & a love of these awesome critters.

[dsmalex97]

I am asking for your opinions, and notice how I wrote "debate" in the title. This means I would like to argue lol. Friendly arguing of course. I'm not trying to prove this is a better method, but just possibly prove it is just as good as any other. I know it seems to be frowned upon to use water, and I'm personally puzzled by this that's all. I've always been good for asking "why" and that's simply all I'm doing here. No need to get bent out of shape over a debate over substrate.

1.) Sorry if I wasn't clear as to how much water. I would never put them in a tank of water filled to the top or anything of the sort lol
2.) Are the species that much different in terms of body make up? I'm still a big newb with the difference in species, and didn't know they look that much different or have a different body structure that would alter swimming from species to species. If so please fill me in :]
3.) I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using a water dish and doing what your doing. All I'm trying to get across in this post is that water as a main substrate might be suitable for them.
4.) I found this kind of funny in your post. "We have tried all kinds of different setups to see what they were most comfortable with, because in the end, the frogs are what matter, right?"- This is why I am making this post in the first place. My frog seemed to be quite at home in the water. Therefore I would like to offer a lot of it because he used it 2:1(water/land). This is what my frog seems to prefer and he's what matters. I'm comfortable keeping him in whatever he prefers simple as that.

[Sublime]

Yeah, those are good comparison shots. However; will you agree that african bullfrogs are can stay afloat, swim longer, swim better, and subermerge longer than a pacman? If the water level is within reach of them being able to touch the bottom with the top portion of their body sticking out, then I can't see anything wrong with your setup you want to do with your pacman. Maybe you could fit some sponge material on one side of the tank for him or her to rest on or get out of the water if they desire.

[dsmalex97]

Honestly, I can't say that yet because I have yet to really see my pac in a water setup like my Pyxie. He had a nice amount of water, but I made sure to add lots of little things for him to grab on and stay above water. I did this because I wasn't to knowledgeable on their swimming ability in comparison to Pyxie's. But from what I observed my Pac seemed fine in the water. Stayed afloat just fine and never really used the things I had in there for him to prevent drowning. I can't say it was better or worse. As long as they can touch and keep there head above water it seems to be ok. I would like to find some kind of way to offer a nice docking zone, and a way to give the bottom some grip.

Thought this was a cool shot. Found it on google. Ornate Horned Frog located at a zoo (forgot which one lol).

[IvoryReptiles]

Honestly, I can't say that yet because I have yet to really see my pac in a water setup like my Pyxie. He had a nice amount of water, but I made sure to add lots of little things for him to grab on and stay above water. I did this because I wasn't to knowledgeable on their swimming ability in comparison to Pyxie's. But from what I observed my Pac seemed fine in the water. Stayed afloat just fine and never really used the things I had in there for him to prevent drowning. I can't say it was better or worse. As long as they can touch and keep there head above water it seems to be ok. I would like to find some kind of way to offer a nice docking zone, and a way to give the bottom some grip.

Which is it? You can't seem to keep your stories straight and that may be the reason I am getting a little frustrated.
Either you have or have not had your Pac in water. First you say you haven't done it yet and then go on to say that when you had it in water it was fine.

And since you don't have the experience & I do......maybe the asked for advice is something you could at least listen to. Pyxies are able to swim......watch your Pac carefully in the water....it struggles....it isn't graceful like most amphibians who are comfortable in a water environment are. I am just wondering why you would bother to place the frog in a situation that might be harmful to it. In the end, it's your animal and no one can tell you how to keep it.

Like I stated before, I was just trying to help since you have stated more than once that you haven't much experience.

[GrifTheGreat]

Ill jump in here to say this. Pacmans or frogs of the family Ceratophrys are terrestrial. They spend 90% of their entire life on land burrowed in the forest floor. If they were anywhere near aquatic or semi-aquatic they would live and spend most of their lives in water which they do not. Their behavior and life-style is very simiar to that of toads which only go to water to breed as do Pacmans. They need substrate to burrow in thus is their natural habitat and behavior. To feel secure they need this. They do not sleep in their water dish. They like to soak but do not like to be in water all the time. I have 2 Cranwellis and neither use their water dishes almost at. All. Grif's is quite wide and could almost fit 2 of her in it and she is quite large. There is a reason why Pyxies are aptly named African (BULL FROGS). They are Semi Aquatic and spend 60/40 land and water so it doesn't affect them as much.

Just because you found random photos of a pyxie in grass and an ornate pacman in water does NOT justify nor prove that an all water setup for a Ceratophrys frog is the way to go. They don't live that way and so it is not and ideal setup for one to live in.

Yes they do have similar shape/have teeth/burrow/and puff up with air but are in no means actually similar. They have a completely different habitat and lifestyle. Just because one frog was in the water a lot doesn't mean another will like it. Also your frog swimming with its head under the water was probably due to its feet slipping on the bottom of the tank and it leaning forward because of it not being able to gain traction. I've seen my do this. They are horrible swimmers. Plus if they were meant to be in water their nostrils would close shut like aquatic and semi-aquatic frogs do. Their do not.