Mysterious pacman death...

[mandarin]

My pacman, Mandarin, passed away recently and I honestly don't know why. Let me explain all the happenings leading up to his death.

I changed Mandarin's bedding around three to four weeks ago, and he had a good meal of crickets shortly after. The next day he had buried himself in the substrate, which wasn't too uncommon because I noticed that he did that a lot after eating. I continued to mist daily, kept the heat normal and made sure there was clean water every day in case he came out at night to soak. However, Mandarin stayed burrowed for two weeks. I was a little concerned but didn't think too much about it, and continued misting and heating as usual. After the two weeks, Mandarin finally came out later in the evening, however I noticed that he seemed a little lethargic. He went straight into the fresh water and I had gone to bed. The next morning when I woke, Mandarin was on his soil looking kind of lop-sided. I figured he'd be hungry after two weeks, but when I offered him a nightcrawler, he didn't even move. I was worried and moved him to get a better look at him (which he normally hates being touched) but he didn't even react to that. Finally after a minute he made his way to the water dish... but his arm and leg on the right side seemed to be dragging, and he struggled his way into the dish. I was freaking out by then, and rushed to my computer to see what could be causing this. In the time it took me to turn on my computer and search on google (with no luck) Mandarin has passed away in the water bowl. ): I noticed there was a weird white liquid in the water afterward.

Here are his setup specs: 10gal glass tank, overhead red incandescent heat bulb, 2 1/2 inches of coconut fiber, water dish, plants for coverage, temp during the day 80-85F and during the night 70-75F. Misting and water changes were daily, bedding change was every three weeks.

I checked for any external signs for illness such as redleg and others but didn't see any signs of it. I wonder if perhaps the crickets I gave him had parasites, even though they were store bought. ): Any help would be awesome. I'm really hoping it was nothing I did that caused this... I'm hoping to get another frog in the next few months and if something I did was wrong I really want to make sure it doesn't happen again ): I miss my Mandarin.

Thanks in advance guys.

[mandarin]

Oh and I forgot to mention... His staple foods were crickets and nightcrawlers, which I coated with Fluker's Clacium with Vitamin D3 powder each time he ate.

[Sublime]

First off, I just wanted to say sorry about your loss. Hopefully we all find the true cause of his death and you'll pick back up right where you left off with more knowledge. How old was mandarin when he attempted to aestivate (Hibernate)? A general rule of thumb is to never let a pacman attempt to aestivate before they're about a year old. Reason being is young frogs need a regular basis for feedings as their growth develops rapidly in the first year. Sexually mature frogs are able to conserve energy focused on living off fat reserves and water than frogs that are still fairly young. Sounds like malnutrition played the biggest part in leading to his death.

If a pacman hasn't eaten for two weeks isn't provoked to feed - you need to force feed a mouse or several night crawlers supplemented. The white fluid that was released into the water I'm assuming was just a release of bodily fluids that is common when a living human or animal dies.

These are common questions we ask everyone before diving more in depth (Don't take offensively): Did you treat the water you were spraying the tank or pouring in his water dish? Did you supplement regularly? Was he exposed to a lot of human activity? Did you handle him a lot?

[Capojames]

Sorry for ur lost. Was ue frog wild caught or captive breed?

[MonsterPyxie]

Did you treat the water you were spraying the tank or pouring in his water dish?

This is the first thing that came to my mind.


Hopefully it was just a fluke. Sorry.

[Jimifrog]

Another thing could be that bulb. Those red bulbs get extremely hot. They can dry out a ten gallon tank very quickly.

I am sorry your pac died.

[GrifTheGreat]

I am so sorry for you loss. It is always hard to lose a beloved pet. I am glad to hear that you are looking into this before getting another pacman. We just want to see healthy pacmans here.

That being said, it is hard to diagnose what happened without pictures and many details. As Sublime mentioned, toxing out due to not using de-chlorinated water is probably the most common cause of death that we see here. What age was your frog? If he was too young and attempted to aestivate without proper fat stores that can be fatal. For an adult frog who just had a big meal, going two weeks without eating is fine, but for a younger frog it is too much. The inability to move his right side may have been due to a neurological problem. Did you happen to notice if his pupils were responsive to the light at the time? What wattage was the light? You should never go over 50 watts. A lot of things can trigger a loss of appetite in pacmans. While they are very easy to care for overall, they can get stressed out easily and if they do they often respond by not eating. When this happens they simply waste away. Too much light, noise, handling, or a draft from a window or air vent are all possible problems. Again, I am very sorry for your loss. Please don't hesitate to ask any questions. We are all here to help.

[IvoryReptiles]

From what you have described so far, I am thinking one of two things :
Toxed out due to water not being de-chlorinated
Toxed Out from being over supplemented

It could also be from Chytrid Fungus......it would take a necropsy to know for sure.

Sorry for the loss.

[GrifTheGreat]

Chyrid fungus as Jessica mentioned is a good possibility. The fungus attacks the frogs skin and causes the skin muscles to tighten and no longer allows the frog to obsorb water through its skin. This causes dehydration and death. As it also attacks the frog when it is weak once the actual signs show up it is nearly too late. The way he was trying to get water makes me suspect that it could have very well been chytrid that may have played a serious role in Manderin's passing. Again I am sorry. Jessica is right though. Your frog would have to be tested for the fungus. I hope you meet with more success this next time around.

[mandarin]

Thank you all for your help so far. Here are some answers to your questions:

I dusted Mandarin's food every other time he ate his meals. I also used water conditioner to dechlorinate the water that I both sprayed in the tank and poured into his water dish (I'm very conscious about things like that). I misted his tank every day and gave him fresh water and made sure that the humidity was at 80% every day. The bulb I used was 40watts. I had Mandarin for a little over a year and a half, I'm not sure how old he was when I purchased him but he was about the size of a silver dollar. As for if he was CB or not, I'm honestly not sure and hadn't even thought to ask when I purchased him - I bought Mandarin from a local small reptile store. Oh and I didn't handle him more than once a month to change his bedding, he was really temperamental haha.

Is there any way I could have recognized the fungus prior to this happening?

Thank you all so much. I'm really trying to learn as much as I possibly can about these great frogs and hopefully prevent anything like this from happening again.

[Eel Noob]

Thank you all for your help so far. Here are some answers to your questions:

I dusted Mandarin's food every other time he ate his meals. I also used water conditioner to dechlorinate the water that I both sprayed in the tank and poured into his water dish (I'm very conscious about things like that). I misted his tank every day and gave him fresh water and made sure that the humidity was at 80% every day. The bulb I used was 40watts. I had Mandarin for a little over a year and a half, I'm not sure how old he was when I purchased him but he was about the size of a silver dollar. As for if he was CB or not, I'm honestly not sure and hadn't even thought to ask when I purchased him - I bought Mandarin from a local small reptile store.

Thank you all so much. I'm really trying to learn as much as I possibly can about these great frogs.

Sorry for the loss.

All everyone can do is speculate. One sure way to find out is take it to a vet for some testing.

Maybe I'm just lucky but I have had no problem keeping all my animals in room temperature year round.

Here's interesting read, someone on here or another forum posted.
Hot Weather Herp Tips - Summer

[IvoryReptiles]

The only way to avoid Chytrid is to treat for it once you get the animal. The treatment is fairly easy and is the only known way currently to make sure your personal pets do not have it. It has gone viral in the wild populations and is found in almost every amphibian. I am including the instructions on how to treat it.

Terbinafine Hydrochloride Treatment


The commonly available over the counter liquid spray form of human foot fungus treatment 'Lamisil AT' (Terbinafine Hydrochloride) has been discovered to be successful in treating amphibians.^[2]
Treatment is as follows:
Buy Lamisil AT Athlete's Foot Spray Pump (1% Terbinafine Hydrochloride). This is available in the USA, Canada and UK.
Put 10 squirts into 200ml of water. Soak frog for 5 minutes per day for 10 days, being sure to have solution get onto the entire frog. Keep the frog in a clean set up after each treatment as putting it back into the original tank will just keep reinfecting the frog. Sterilize and redo the original set up and any instruments that may have come in contact with the frog or its water before reintroduction of the frog. Best to wear disposable plastic gloves and swap them after frog is inserted into treatment area.

We do not use gloves when we perform this treatment. We use sanitizer and drench our hands with it then wash our hands with Dove soap and dry them thoroughly.....we do this between handling the frog and the containers through EACH step of the treatment.

[whiffer01]

It could of been Chytrid, as mentioned by others before. Do you have a picture of what the frog looked like when this was happening? That might help. I am sorry for your loss of Mandarin.

[mandarin]

That's a pretty good precautionary step. So I should treat a new frog with this, even if I don't know the frog has it? I didn't think it would take this long for something like that to take effect, but then again perhaps there was signs this past year and a half that I just didn't catch... Thanks for your help! I'll definitely keep the treatment in mind if I decide to get another frog!

[mandarin]

It could of been Chytrid, as mentioned by others before. Do you have a picture of what the frog looked like when this was happening? That might help. I am sorry for your loss of Mandarin.

Unfortunately I don't. I realize now that pictures would have been helpful, but at the time I was too overcome with panic and sadness to have thought about taking a picture. ): However as I stated before, I didn't see anything unusual on his body when I examined him... then again I'm no expert.

[Eel Noob]

One thing about Chytrid is some animal will show signs of redden skins, excessive shedding, etc but some don't and just dies. I know some hobbyist will treat every new frog they have but I don't.

[GrifTheGreat]

That's a pretty good precautionary step. So I should treat a new frog with this, even if I don't know the frog has it? I didn't think it would take this long for something like that to take effect, but then again perhaps there was signs this past year and a half that I just didn't catch... Thanks for your help! I'll definitely keep the treatment in mind if I decide to get another frog!

I believe the gestation period is around 18 to 28 days before it becomes full blown infection to where it can kill the frog. Usually after it begins to attack the frog it causes excessive shedding/very dry bad sheds/lesions/sores/and discoloration mainly in the infected areas. Some cases this doesn't fully show these signs which is why you would have to get the frog tested by a specialist or vet.

You can treat you new frog with the method Jessica described above. Quarantine your frog in a hospital setup. Use only moist paper towels as a substrate and change them after each treatement. Also clean the hospital tank each time as well to be sure not to reinfect the frog. Just fallow the steps and all should be fine. You can still try to feed while putting your frog through this treatment.

[mandarin]

Ah okay, well that explains why I hadn't noticed anything out of the ordinary with him, if it sometimes doesn't show. I will definitely be using that treatment next time. Thank you.