Opinions wanted. How many RETF can live in a 36x36x18 Exo-Terra

[flybyferns]

After the one that is currently in quarantine is transferred, I will have 6 in a 36 x 36 x 18 Exo-Terra.

Room for more ?

[John]

That's really a matter of opinion. I think you've got a nice number in there now - I personally wouldn't add more.

[flybyferns]

John,
Thanks for your help. It is very much appreciated !
I guess I might be asking questions I already know the answers to.
I was actually planning one more black-eyed froglet. I have a pairs thing! So there might be 7. But, they are $$.
I have one in my tank already.( Waiting to try to determine its sex?)
It has never made a sound ! So, maybe it's female?

Actually the black-eye's behavior is quite different the the RETFs. It likes to jump. I have seen it jump form one side of the tank to the other! -36"
It parachutes (?) down to the plant it wants to get to. It wakes up sooner and goes back to sleep later in the am. It does not seem to be as affected by the plant lights coming on in the morning. Pretty frog. There are a few pics in one of my albums of the black-eyed.

Thanks again, Lynn

[ViperJr]

If you ask me (and probably 90% of the people on this forum), you should really separate the two frog species that you keep in that tank. Even though they're both agalychnis, they're not the same species, which is both stressful and potentially dangerous (due to intoxication) for both species. So instead of adding more red eyes, you should buy a second tank and house one of the two species in it.

However, the albino red eyed is totally fine with the ordinary red eyes, since they're the same species.

[flybyferns]

Martin,
Yikes!
Thank you so much for your recommendation, I truly appreciate it.

I will certainly be doing a really lot of research regarding this, as I was told otherwise. ( and asking some questions)
I purchase the frog , as a froglet, from a , very , very , highly respected breeder who was well aware of the fact I was putting it in with RETFs.
I was told , at the time, that they were able to live together " if my tank were large enough" . They are all in an exo-terra 36x36x18 .
They have been together for almost 2 years !

Lynn

[wesleybrouwer]

IT's truely best to keep them seperated,
you will have the problem of potential crossbreeding.
Not something you should risk doing with the moreletti.

Maybe the breeder ment that care would be similair to that of the red eyes?

[flybyferns]

They seem to be very happy.
What would I notice if there were to be a problem?
They were all quarantined properly ( at least 6 weeks) prior to being put together.
All purchased as froglets.
I have never seen any aggressive behavior.

[ViperJr]

They seem to be very happy.

Well, you can't really say if they're happy or not. Frogs probably aren't even "happy", as we are.

What would I notice if there were to be a problem?

This might be tricky, as always with amphibians. You might not notice it at all, until it's to late. Early death due to stress and/or being poisoned by the other frogs might not be seen until it takes your frogs away.

They were all quarantined properly ( at least 6 weeks) prior to being put together.

This is great and kudos for doing this (too many people neglect this), but it's not important in this case. The danger is the fact that living so close to other species is stressful (and stress is very dangerous in frogs), and they can poison each other over time.

All purchased as froglets.

Same here, it really doesn't make any difference in this case

I have never seen any aggressive behavior.

Like I said before, the problem is the stress and the fact that they are different species with different kind of secret on their skin. A lack of aggression is not a sign that it's not dangerous for the frogs.


Please note that I'm not trying to flame you. I just think that you should not keep 2 species of frogs together in one enclosure (unless we're talking like an entire house for the frogs), because it's too risky. Perhaps it's possible that you get lucky one time and they actually survive, but that doesn't make it good. It's an unnecessary risk and I think it should be avoided.
If you think about it, housing these two kinds of frogs together can at best not affect them at all. However, there are several scenarios that can happen where the frogs get hurt.

[flybyferns]

Hi Martin,
Thanks very much for your advice. I have emailed the breeder. I wall pick his brain as well.
I have already had a conversion with him about this when I purchased my black eye.
And In fact will see him at a show in 2 weeks!

I have a close friend that has a very large custom cage . He is 60 years old.
He has housed these two frogs in that viv for as long as I can remember. Years together !
He is the person who encouraged me to purchase and buy (short of a custom viv) the largest viv I could afford.
My frogs have been in this 36 x 36 x18 for about 4 months; prior to that they were together in a smaller viv.
This person has taught everything - which I respect is still a tiny bit compared to others.
He always emphasizes cleaning and keeping the simplest substrate ( ie dampened paper towels) for the agalychnis.

He has stressed that the biggest problems ( obviously increasing the risk of stress and death ) come from:
-poor maintenance ( being the worst thing for them) we both use dampened bleach free paper towels, wiping glass sown frequently w/ distilled H2o

( I change my substrate every other day ) sometimes daily ! So you can imagine how different this becomes from a false bottom viv.
- dusting crickets 2:1: (vitamins/calcium) ( for adults)---- froglets 50:50 ( we use 'Rep-Cal') otherwise there can be Ca toxcity in the adults
-too high humidity - ( causing respiratory problems) 60-80 % the black-eye likes it on the upper end of that range
-poor ventilation- fans are imperative !
- too high temps- never over 80%
- we both use ( even know it's controversial ) a small amount of uvb light w/ the light cycle ( I use one 0.5 uvb bulb w/out heat) separate bulbs to maintain heat in cooler months
- the need for tons and tons of plants and hiding places. Live plants if possible/kept very clean.

and of course the other usual- captive bread and quarantine of any newbie

I have an entire special routine of plant rotation to reduce any mold development , cleaning laves, and re-potting.

Talk to you soon!

[ViperJr]

Im not complaining about your setup, I'm sure it's good and that you maintain it well. And I agree about (almost) everything you said. However, it's irrelevant when talking about housing different kinds of frogs. As I see it, we can't really know for sure. Now, I have never housed different frogs together, so I can't give you firsthand experience. However, if you ask 50 people that have done this, you'll probably get 50 different opinions. Since I highly doubt there have ever been any scientific studies on how large a tank have to be to not affect the frogs negatively in this kind of situation, you just have to talk to as many people as possible (people with a good reputation and experience) and then make your own opinion.
For example, if you do a quick search here on the forum about housing different kinds of frogs, you'll find a lot of threads. And they all say one thing about it...

Whatever you chooses do to or not to do, I hope your frogs will live a long and healthy life!

[wesleybrouwer]

Do you know what the real number one cause for frogs diseases is?
Stress.
Do you know what is stressfull to them?
Changing their substrate daily and cleaning of every single plant.
Come on.
If you overcrowd you're viv, i see why you wan't to do this.

But overcrowding is stressfull, so is handling or disturbing you're frogs and the environment this excessive .
With al due respect, but i totally disagree with the person that told you this is the best way of maintaining you're frogs.

If you keep the frogs in a tank large enough, live plants, normal substrate and some janitors like woodlice or springtails.
The waist will become plant food.
Once in a while you can take a damp paper towel to take of excessive waist from the leaves of the plants.
This will be way better then stressing them out this much.

Still, the problem of crossbreeding remains.
So i would really advise to keep them apart from eachother.
For poisoning i'm not afraid, since agalychnis isn't poisonous at all
I'm more afraid of you hurting you're frogs skin due to the acids from you're own skin or any residues from something stuck to you're hands.

[ViperJr]

Posining is still a concern. Sure, they do not create a poison like some dartfrogs, but they have a skin secret that could "posion" eachother over time. Perhaps it's a bad word to describe it, but I think you understand what I mean. Perhaps skin toxin would better describe what I'm trying to say. Different species have different skin toxins and it's possible for them to "posion" each other, even in the same genus.

[wesleybrouwer]

Sorry, but my red eyes aren't toxic at all.
They are not able to secret poison/toxic like a poison dart from their food,
and they don't have poison glands to make it their own like some other tree frogs or toads.
So no, i'm not exactly sure what you mean.
Sorry

[ViperJr]

I blame my bad english. Let me try again:
They are NOT poisonus like a toad, that have specific poisonus glads. They do not excrete a poison in a way dart frogs would in the wild.
However, they excrete a skin secrete like all amphibians. This secrete is different for each species and can be harmfull to other species over time. It's just like if you would spit on a frog on a regular basis. I'm sure you agree that it's not good for the frog, and yet you as a human are not "posionus".

And yes, I would have to agree that cleaning so much so often seem to create an awfull lot of unneccesary stress.

[flybyferns]

Oh my goodness you guys !
We are ,all, very serious about are hobby. Aren't we ! You guys might be kookier then me ! no - that's not possible ?????

Martin, You do not have "Bad English ". I understood every thing you have mentioned. Thank You.

and

weselybrower, thank you as well.

Clean is what I emphasized. yes -
I have 7 frogs ( 1 albino still in quarentine). never lost one ! ( knock wood )
I will not leave plants in he tank that have been defecated on and urinated on ,day after day, after day.
It's unhealthy for the frog and smell discussing , to boot !

I never, ever disturb my frogs. I have never woken a sleeping frog.
They don't care if I clean the paper towel- they don't even know I was there. They do not care what's on the bottom of the tank. My frogs have never seen costa rica!
I can count on one hand how many times I ever so much as touch any of them.
I use gloves when I clean the cage. NOOOOOOO, not becaause I think I am going to be poisoned w/ salmonella.
Because, I wear nail polish,make-up, hand cream, use detergent at the kitchen sink. I have 2 cats, 2 hamsters, 2 fish tanks and a russian tortoise, ( that I do handle
all of the time).

I came across this random video on you tube recently .
!! watch till the very end !!! very funny / but seriously - he deserved it !!!!!

Red Eyed Tree Frog PEE's on Me! - YouTube


And if my black-eyed tree frog mates with a red eye ' I will eat my hat ' imagine that!
Why--- we would have a new a new genus? We could call it a 'promiscuus callidryas'.
Could we put that frog w/ the red eyed or the black eyed. ? kidding

You guys are great - thanks, Lynn

[Heatheranne]

Lol!!!

[ViperJr]

Oh my goodness you guys !
We are ,all, very serious about are hobby. Aren't we ! You guys might be kookier then me ! no - that's not possible ?????

Martin, You do not have "Bad English ". I understood every thing you have mentioned. Thank You.

and

weselybrower, thank you as well.

Clean is what I emphasized. yes -
I have 7 frogs ( 1 albino still in quarentine). never lost one ! ( knock wood )
I will not leave plants in he tank that have been defecated on and urinated on ,day after day, after day.
It's unhealthy for the frog and smell discussing , to boot !

I never, ever disturb my frogs. I have never woken a sleeping frog.
They don't care if I clean the paper towel- they don't even know I was there. They do not care what's on the bottom of the tank. My frogs have never seen costa rica!
I can count on one hand how many times I ever so much as touch any of them.
I use gloves when I clean the cage. NOOOOOOO, not becaause I think I am going to be poisoned w/ salmonella.
Because, I wear nail polish,make-up, hand cream, use detergent at the kitchen sink. I have 2 cats, 2 hamsters, 2 fish tanks and a russian tortoise, ( that I do handle
all of the time).

I feel like I've said what I have to say and explained it as good as I can. So I'm not going to say much more on the topic of housing different species in one enclosure.
Regarding the cleaning, I can't really say anything. It feels to me that it is unnecessary, but that doesn't mean anything. So I'm not going to comment that more either.

Now, regarding cross-breeding within agalychnis... Have this ever been observed? Or cross-breeding within any other genus at all? Would be interesting to know.

[wesleybrouwer]

Not sure what the phrase means with kookier, but well, i guess it must be something sarcastic reading the rest of you're post
Sorry to have bothered you with a different opinion then your's and the person that teached you how to take care of frogs.

The obsesive cleaning and sterile enclosures are something we think different about i think.
In my point of view, it does stress frogs out to be moved in and out of the tank or fiddling around when they are sleeping.
But , as you say, you never woke one up, so you must be really carefull while cleaning, picking up the plants they sleep on and clean the leaves around them.

The smell? No idea, don't have that problem here and i do have all natural beddings with life plants in them.
As i said before, overcrowding may cause excessive waist.

To be answering you're question this topic was started about.
No, i believe 6 frogs, 7 verry soon, are well enough for this size tank.
I would suggest placing the moreletti in another tank and start a little group of them there.
But i have an idea it don't even matter what i tell you, so this is the last i would say about it.

Crossbreeding is possible, but not something you should wan't to do.
There has been done some research on it by Andrew R. Gray, Manchester Museum of natural history.
Hopefully you will never need to eat you're hat, otherwise i'd love to see some pictures of that

The peeing is flight behavior by the way.
In fact, there is just a negligible amount of urine in it, most of the liquid is plain water.
By squirting the water out, in many cases they lose half their weight.
This will make them lighter, so they are able to escape a predator easier since they don't cary that much weight.

If you're ever caught up in the outback, lost, without water, you'll be thankfull for me being serious
The aboriginals catch frogs when water is scarce in the desert.
They make use of the squirting reflex of frogs in order to get some water to prevent dehydration.

[flybyferns]

Thanks again for all your help.
Lynn