Help please

[kkmt]

Hello- I'm new here, just found the forum tonight. I was searching the internet for answers after a very rough day. My 8 yr old daughters red eyed tree frog died today. We are devastated and shocked!<br>Please help us discover what happened to her and what we could have done to help her better. <br><br>We bought the frog from a chain pet store in july. she was in a glass 30 tall aquarium with a mesh cover. We built a substrate layered of clay beads, dirt, mesh, moss (all bought from pet store). We also made a waterfall with a pump that circulated the water which soaked through the substrate back up to the top of the tank. It did not filter the water, just pumped it (the pet store man said that the layers of substrate would act as a natural filter). We had a uv lamp, red heat lamp and white heat lamp. the uv lamp and white heat lamp were on timeres for 12 hrs. the red heat lamp stayed on all the time to keep the tank warm. We had it around 65-85 degrees depending on which area of the tank, height of the tank nd time of the day you tested it. The humidity was always around 80-90 percent. <br><br>The frog would eat about 3 pinhead crickets a day(gut loaded and calcium shaked). she was a little frog (2in from nose to bum) and pretty skinny still when she stretched out (about 1 in wide). Her head was still wider than her body-not counting her legs. She was set into a routine. Went from one resting place to another, slept all day, moved at night, etc. We saw her shed her slime coat once-that freaky swallowing thing!!!<br><br>We did not handle her. My daughter was allowed to "hold" her once a week when i searched under rocks, logs, etc for any cricket carcasses in the tank. There were always about 5 dead ones a week in the tank and i didnt want them to get the tank dirty by decompossing.<br><br>Well, this am...we were misting the tank (treated tap water) and the frog reated to us. She kinda "spasmed" and fell over. In shock, we watched her a while. Her eyes were open - very unusual for daytime. her back was hunched up and her back legs were "sprawled" outwards away from her body. Her front legs were tucked in close to her body but without any muscle definition - kinda "limp" footed.<br><br>We immediately set up a smaller "hospital" aquarium. using moistened paper towel, water dish, 10 gal glass aquarium, mesh lid. I ifted her out of her big tank and put her in the new one. she had no muscle strength- very floppy. <br><br>we had to go to work, my husband came home at lunch and checked on her at noon, she hadnt moved at all from where i put her. the vet appt was booked for 5pm. when we got home at  4. she was dead.<br><br>the vet told uss they didnt think they could have helped us, because they are not an exotic vet but we were gonna give it a try.<br><br>my daughter is devestated!!! she has wanted to be a herpetologist for about a yr now and she breathes frogs and amphibians. Does anyone have any answers for us.<br><br>I have read about spastic disorder and wondered if that could have been it. She is feeling so guilty that she tried to keep this type of frog and we failed. I have been reassuring her that we did everything by the book-but maybe we didnt???? please help

[John]

Firstly, next time you post can you please try and make paragraphs - it's very daunting to read the one continuous piece like that.

As to the problem, a few alarm bells go off for me. Firstly, you shouldn't be using a UV light. Secondly, the temperature should not vary that much each day (20 degrees F is too great a variation and is stressful). Also, 85 is a bit too hot for these frogs in my opinion. Lastly, it sounds like the frog was severely underfed (and/or under eating) for its size. I hope these are some points you can work on. Sorry for your loss.

[kkmt]

I did use paragraphs in my post. However, when I posted the thread all those symbols came up in every paragraph space.I realize it is difficult to read when things are all mushed together. I actually found it difficult to read that your first concern is about my paragraph use. We are mourning our beloved tree frog and you are more concerned about syntax and grammar issues. not coolAs for UV light- why not? We were told from a few pet people, including a vet that its not necessary but would help with the frogs 24 hour cycle. And because we live north, UV light is always good for animals that are naturally found south of the equator. As for the temperature- we have many books that state a temperature gradian of 75-85 farenheit is appropriate. With cooler spots and warmer spots throughout the levels of a tank. There was always the cooler side of the tank without heat lamps for her to go to.As for underfed- how do you make a frog eat?? We would shake crickets and put in about 5 a day, however she would only eat about 3 a day. They are called pinheads but are about the length between her eyes. That is what the vet said to feed her. Anything larger than her eye space she wouldn't touch. So how do you make sure they are eating enough? When they are active and appear healthy. We always offered her more crickets than she ate, so there was always extra crickets running around in her aquarium.What temps should it have been? How many crickets should she have been eating? How do you force one to eat more than they choose to? What is wrong with UV light? .

[Poly]

We are mourning our beloved tree frog and you are more concerned about syntax and grammar issues

John's trying to help you, no need to get sarcastic with him!

I've had this happen to my posts before too, just go back, and space them, so others can read them.

You should have kept the temperatures between 70 and 80, not varying 20F.

Did you ever try other insects (meal worms, night crawlers cut up, beetles, ants)!? I'm sure it would have went for a worm, which are much more healthy and filling that crickets, they have to have varity too!

Frogs do not need UV light, it's hard on them, and they do not need to "bask" like reptiles, if you wanted to keep the heat at a steady level, you should have used a heat pad, a light cycle is optional, not 100% needed.

[BG]

Sorry for your poor frog. We know your upset. Evrybody are looking to help you with your issues. Relax ,step back a bit and think about what John said. He has answered your questions, Again im sorry about your frog. We should learn from our mistakes.

[ViperJr]

First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. I would be devastated if I lost one of my pets without knowing why.

Secondly...

We are mourning our beloved tree frog and you are more concerned about syntax and grammar issues. not cool

So, your complaining about a person who gladly gave you advice and help you. That's what I would call "not cool".

Thirdly, red eyes rarely overeat and get obese (unlike White's tree frog for example), which mean that you could put more crickets than the frog would normally eat and it'll just leave the rest when it's done feeding for the time being. If you use a feeding bowl made out of glass (just a dip bowl or whatever), you can pour the crickets in it, and they can't get out. That way, you'll always know how much the frog have been eating.

While it's hard to know exactly what happend to you frog, here are some general advice to keep a stress-free frog, which will create an eating frog, which will create an healthy frog.
There are two extremely important aspect when housing. It should be as stress-free as possible, and they need to feel secure. This means that they should not be disturbed. The terrarium should be kept in a calm area in the house where there are as little movement as possible and not much noise. It's also very important that they have alot of hiding and climbing space, so they can feel secure and move about.

Just a final note on the light:
It's true that they are from the equator, however they're not really exposed to much lightning in the wild. They live in the trees in a rain forest, where much light is filtered by the canopy. And even more importantly, they are very nocturnal. A UV light with very low UV-precent will not harm them, but it will help the plants to grow. However, there are other non-UV light that works just as well. You do really want some sort of lightning, since a costant day/night-cycle IS important when housing these frogs. It's important that it gets really dark at night, so that they feel secure.

[BG]

I saw a show one time about the rain forest floor .In the day very little light made it down where the frogs live. Then in the night. There is no noise,and pitch black. they're were frogs on plants in the dark. Martin you just described the scene in The documentary i saw . Great job my friend.

[flybyferns]

Sorry about your frog !

I have had RETRs for 2 years. I would not call myself VERY experienced. However, I have never lost a frog.
In my opinion, the humidity was too high. They get respiratory problems.
You need to keep your hands clean --- if you should EVER have to touch them. They are look, but DO NOT TOUCH pets!
For example ( I have 6 tree frogs ) , I can not remember the last time I touch one of my frogs !
The need circulating air. I have a fan on a timer to circulate air.
Plus , the cage has to be really, really clean for red eyes!