Finally had some success with my B. terrestris

Indeed great work on those toads

I would be carefull tough with outbreeding you're albino's.
Outbreeding from a line of incest can turn out to be even more dissasteress then keeping up the inbred.
You're suspision could be right i think, since you need two frogs with the same genetical disorder, albinism, it would be a great chance they are from one and the same bloodline.

My tought about it is they are not right genetically and therefore i don't see the use of breeding a weaker version of an animal.
Most morphs are created by inbred, causing genetical failures and keep inbreeding as long as possible to keep that mutant available for pet trade.
But well, that's just the way i see it
I just like the animals more the way they are the healthiest and nature like.
Breeding weaker versions and crossbreeding is not my cup of tea,
but everyone got it's own look at it ofcourse.
As long as it is clear what is what, everyone can make it's own decisions

Some studies on fish showed the consequences of outbreeding an inbred bloodline, i don't suspect amphibians to be a lot different.
If you don't know of any articles concerning inbred/outbred i can check if i still got the pdf on my hard drive and send it to you.
I think it would be a shame if the attempts will be all for nothing in the end.

Anyways,
keep up the good work

Wow! I just saw this post. I'm so happy for your breeding success! Great pictures too. Look forward to seeing more!

Hmm… I have been thinking my way through the genetics here...

I would be interested in seeing the article on fish breeding with respect to outcrossing highly inbred lines. In the lab, we regularly outcross mutants derived through mutagenesis to remove background mutations and normalize the genetic background (as much as possible) relative to the wildtype. Of course, we can usually follow the mutation of interest (by PCR, for example) through the outcrossing process, and simply rely on diluting any deleterious alleles through repeated outcrosses. I guess an argument against outcrossing is that it can simply conceal a deleterious recessive mutation by making it heterozygous, in which case it may reappear in subsequent generations. In addition, if the deleterious allele is tightly linked to the desired trait, it may be difficult or impossible to separate the two. If there is no other way to sustain the line (and it is a matter of personal opinion whether it would be worthwhile to do so), then outcrossing may be the only option (and it may not work). Personally, I think the albino Woodhouse’s toads look fabulous and I would love to see them preserved and improved through careful breeding.

**
Now it is getting difficult for me to discuss heavy material in another language then my own

I'l do my best anyways
**

As i clearified my personal point of view on breeding a weaker varieaty of a species,
what is the case with albinism.
Albino's aren't as hardy as the normal version,
noticable here as well.

It is a disorder in wich both parents got to possess the gene for albinism to get albino offspring.
Only when mating 2 albino's there is a chance of 100% of getting albino offspring.

To reach this again after outbreeding, there have to be heterozygous steps between that.
Nobody will be able to see that it has some kind of disorder but it IS there.
Now as this line spreads trough the hobby, there might be a point where i am not certain if i got a healthy frog so to speak.
Resulting in more and more albino's, surpressing the original form.
That is what i mean, do whatever you please as long as it is clear what is what.
So far a personal concern

To the problems of outbreeding;

When for example a colony excists with lots of the same genes trough inbred,
there is a possibility that those genes are evolved to the specific area.
The animals might be resistant to types of disease for example.
When outbreeding those animals, you can take away the resistence and make them prone to the threats they created a specific genetic against.

Another possibility is that for example an isolated colony evolves it;s genetics in a different way then another colony does.
This way the genetics can become less and less matchable,
resulting in bad offspring.
As i see it, a captive population can be seen as an isolated colony.
Putting in genes from another colony can cause problems in the missmatching genes.

As an albino form is something created trough excessive inbreeding,
putting in a wild form can mean their genes don't match the way they used to anymore.
Altough there is a possibility that the line of inbred isn't in an advanced stage,
but then again, i don't like the idea of not visible but genetical incorrect specimens getting into my breeding groups.

My guess would be that the albino genes are closely related to the ones that are responsible for the high mortality within this form.
Mother nature cures itself, so to speak.
In nature not much albino's survive for long time since they are not as healthy as the "normal" of their kind are, they got multiple disadvantages as well.

When outbreeding succeeds you got to select the genetic disorder again in order to get albino's again.
You are picking out the animals with a genetic disorder and breed them along again.
As soon as you get the "pure" albino again they are also teased by bad genetics.
The same genetics that were in the first frog you tried to improve, since the normal form isn't able to provide a different set of genes on that part of the DNA.

In my point of view, little chance you can improve a malfunction of the genetics while keeping the disorder

Originally Posted by Greg M

[FONT=&quot]Hmm… I have been thinking my way through the genetics here...

I would be interested in seeing the article on fish breeding with respect to outcrossing highly inbred lines.

Well I know with bettas when fixing traits it is a fairly standard practice to inbreed two separate lines up to the fifth generation and then outcross for strength. That is assuming no problems have showed up earlier. Normally you can inbreed up to aprox. the eighth generation before you start having serious problems with sterility etc. I believe aprox the same number of generations applies to mice as well. Occasionally you will get lucky and have a strain that does not start to self destruct from inbreeding between aprox. the 8th and 12th generation. If they make it past the 12th generation or so of inbreeding without falling apart often times things smooth out and you have created essentially a purebred strain where all specimens are very similar genetically. This is rare though because most founder individuals carry enough hidden genetic flaws to destroy a line if their offspring are inbred to excess. If you don't outcross to ensure continuing genetic strength if your line is to survive you essentially must start with genetically flawless individuals and that is quite rare and impossible to know without proving it out over many generations.

In the case of these albino woodhouse toads if I were to venture a educated guess I would say they are inbred no more than about three or four generations at the very most and quite possibly less. The original group of albino woodhouse toads were supposedly found as eggs in Nevada if I recall, I forget what year but I am thinking it was 2005, then those albinos were bred together and albino woodhouse toads have been produced and offered for sale in 2007,2008, and 2010. In the past they have given quite a few problems to some while still in the toadlet stage, lots of people had issues with bloating followed by them dieing off in previous years. Thus there was considerable speculation about some type of genetic flaw being prevalent in the albino woodhouse toads. However, the relatively few folks that successfully reared some to adulthood had no issues after that that I heard of. As far as I am concerned the question is still an open one and the only way to figure it out for sure is to breed them over several more generations. Albino's in general seem to be more likely to have health issues than other color mutations so if some genetic flaw frequently goes with the albino woodhousii it would be no great surprise, however in many species and various strains of albinism the majority of the issues can be resolved via careful breeding.

Originally Posted by wesleybrouwer

Indeed great work on those toads

I would be carefull tough with outbreeding you're albino's.
Outbreeding from a line of incest can turn out to be even more dissasteress then keeping up the inbred.
You're suspision could be right i think, since you need two frogs with the same genetical disorder, albinism, it would be a great chance they are from one and the same bloodline.

Yes, they are most definitely from the same bloodline. There is only one line of albino woodhousii in the hobby and it is relatively recent at that. Yes I am aware of occasional problems that can result from outcrossing of highly inbred lines but such is much less common than problems from excessive inbreeding. Most of the time outcrossing strengthens a line by increasing genetic diversity. Further, these toads haven't been around long enough to get that inbred.

My tought about it is they are not right genetically and therefore i don't see the use of breeding a weaker version of an animal.
Most morphs are created by inbred, causing genetical failures and keep inbreeding as long as possible to keep that mutant available for pet trade.

Humans have always done that. That is what dogs, sheep and pretty much any domestic livestock are. Generally they are selectively bred forms that are significantly mutated from the original wild stock in a way that would not help them in the wild but that does help them in captivity because humans consider it desirable for what ever reason, be it for pet quality, egg, milk, or meat production, or what have you. As far as inbreeding, in and of it self it is not a serious problem, what it does is bring out what ever genes are there in the founders and greatly increases the likelihood that a given individual will be homozygous instead of heterozygous for a given gene that was present in the founders. That can be good or bad, it all depends on the gene. Since most animals carry both desirable and undesirable genes weeding out the undesirable genes while keeping the desirable ones is what selective breeding is all about.

I didnt know of the recent background of the albino bloodline of woodhousii.
The advanced inbreed problems might not be that big then.

I understand the way they made different dogbreeds out of a wolf.
But in my point of view i am concerned of the fact there will be woodhousii with the appearance of the normal ones,
in their genes lies the albino gene that doesn't show up because they need 2 of those genes in a pair in order to make it visible.

Even when i am going to breed it with a toad without the disorder,
chances tell me i can still get a hidden flaw in my offspring without me even knowing.

As if i am going to breed 2 german shepards and all of a sudden they give labor to a chihuahua because they got hidden genes that only shows up when both parents pass it on.
Might be a tad overdone this example, but i would be disappointed if it happens to me when i chose to get the normal ones i get them with hidden flaws coming up later on.


Anyways, there should be other people that would like to have some.
As i said before, i don't mind, as long as it stays clear for me to choose wether i like to have one with a malfunction or not.

On the other hand, i am also curious if you can succeed in keeping the flaw in the form of albinism but eliminate the problems like being weaker as normal ones.
So in line of the scientific part i think it is interesting to see if there is a strong connection between albinism and weaker animals.
But in line of my love for the frogs as they are supposed to be by nature, i think it's scary getting all kinds of hidden flaws in my own bloodlines.

Originally Posted by wesleybrouwer

But in my point of view i am concerned of the fact there will be woodhousii with the appearance of the normal ones,
in their genes lies the albino gene that doesn't show up because they need 2 of those genes in a pair in order to make it visible. Even when i am going to breed it with a toad without the disorder, chances tell me i can still get a hidden flaw in my offspring without me even knowing. As if i am going to breed 2 german shepards and all of a sudden they give labor to a chihuahua because they got hidden genes that only shows up when both parents pass it on.Might be a tad overdone this example, but i would be disappointed if it happens to me when i chose to get the normal ones i get them with hidden flaws coming up later on.

Well given the fact that there are less than 20 breeders/hobbyists(and that is being generous due to the recent interest in and successes with melanophryniscus stelzneri, a more realistic number would be more like five or six if one doesn't count M. stelzneri) in the United States that are very likely to breed any kind of bufonid at this time the issue of "tainting" the captive population with hidden and unwanted genetics is pretty much a non-issue. Further, if someone wants a "guaranteed pure" wild type woodhousii that is, and is likely to remain, pretty easy to get given that they are native to the USA, quite common, and usually unprotected.

But in line of my love for the frogs as they are supposed to be by nature, i think it's scary getting all kinds of hidden flaws in my own bloodlines.

Again, not really an issue with bufonids, virtually no one breeds any of them. Before "tainted bloodlines" can be a legitimate concern there would have to be a whole lot more toad breeders than there are. Toads aren't like poison frogs where there are numerous captive lines of numerous species and hundreds of different breeders. Right now and for the foreseeable future if someone didn't specifically tell you otherwise the phototype of a given toad specimen is most likely its genotype and even if it were not it wouldn't make a bit of practical difference except to a handful of people who would most likely be tickled if they bred a specimen and it proved out to have a unusual genotype.

SethD, to return to the original topic, I am quite impressed with your toad husbandry. I have Woodhouse's toads and my toadlets from this year run between 1.5 and 2 inches, rather less than your Southern toads. What are your secrets for such rapid growth? I feed isopods, small Dubia nymphs, crickets, and the occasional silkworm or butterworm. Everything that can be gut-loaded is fed Repashy's insect gutload, and I dust with Repashy's Calcium Plus ICB... No feeding issues (short-tongue) or anything...

Originally Posted by Greg M

What are your secrets for such rapid growth?

Steroid injections. Seriously, it is normal for them to grow quite fast if the temps are in the upper 70's to mid 80's and they have a sufficient supply of food. Some individuals will always grow faster than others but best growth rates overall come when they are fed as much as they can eat daily and twice daily for the first month or so. The biggest ones will grow around an inch per month until they hit full adult size while some of smaller ones will take a couple more months to reach adulthood. You may have to separate smaller ones out of a group so the bigger ones don't take the lion share of the food. Mine are currently fed primarily lateralis roaches and mealworms/superworms(fattening, but that is not a bad thing when toads are growing rapidly) and during the summer they would also get what ever wc insects happened to get caught in my insect traps. That was the works, stinkbugs, flying ants, various beetles, moths, etcetera. They wouldn't turn down anything. I also dusted daily with repashy ICB. I was feeding out orange isopods too but stopped because they were eating up far to many and to continue would have destroyed my isopod colony which wasn't intended to feed so many hungry toads. lol What your feeding sounds fine, to get faster growth you probably just need to feed more of it. They will eat a ridiculous amount of food if they have a chance. Mine will consume a quarter(perhaps more, certainly no less) of their body weight daily and be ready to do it again the next day. When they are toadlets that translates directly into growth speed rather than making them fat as it will adults. In wild growth patterns are similar. Ridiculously fast if there is an abundance of food, slower if food is less available.


I personally have kept around thirty of the southern toad toadlets so I would have have a goodly number of hets to continue the breeding project with. now that they are a pretty good size they certainly do go through a quantity of insects but I knew they would. If everything works out I should be able to produce some some xanthic leucistic southern toads sometime next spring. A large group should make it a little easier than single pairs do.

Excellent info Seth - thank you! I think the feeding frequency (I was feeding every second day) and perhaps the temperature (my room temperature is typically 72 to 76 degrees, even in the summer) probably account for the difference in growth rate. I'm going to play with those two variables. As an aside, please put me on the list for one of your leucistic homozygotes when they come on line...

Just an update on this for anyone interested since someone just asked me about it via PM.

I attempted and succeeded in breeding the second generation this spring which should in theory have produced 25% visibly showing the mutation if it was a typical simple recessive gene. Unfortunately out of several hundred raised to morphing not a single tadpole or toadlet produced showed the mutation. This means the mutation is most likely either not heritable or tied to a fatal gene that prevents development of the eggs that would be homozygous for the trait. In short the project is most likely a dead end. Disappointing, but that is how it goes sometimes.

Very interesting thread to read through. They look great!! Sorry the project was a dead end though

Congratz again Seth. I wish you would breed Bufo speciosus or Bufo cognatus though .

Originally Posted by John

Congratz again Seth. I wish you would breed Bufo speciosus or Bufo cognatus though .

Being a texan I can't really breed any native texas toad species as a few years ago they made it illegal to have more than ten individuals of any one native reptile/amphibian species or 25 individuals total without going through the hassle, expense, record keeping and reporting requirements of becoming a "permitted" dealer. Given that one breeding of any native toad species would put me way over the legal limit for non-dealers and a total lack of a market I just don't work with native texas toads. Only way I might go to the trouble of working with texas toads now is if I were to get a color mutation of a native toad species which I could in theory actually make a little money by breeding if it proved out. Cognatus is a nice toad though.

Originally Posted by SethD

Being a texan I can't really breed any native texas toad species as a few years ago they made it illegal to have more than ten individuals of any one native reptile/amphibian species or 25 individuals total without going through the hassle, expense, record keeping and reporting requirements of becoming a "permitted" dealer. Given that one breeding of any native toad species would put me way over the legal limit for non-dealers and a total lack of a market I just don't work with native texas toads. Only way I might go to the trouble of working with texas toads now is if I were to get a color mutation of a native toad species which I could in theory actually make a little money by breeding if it proved out. Cognatus is a nice toad though.

You should try Bufo boreas Seth, the populations from my childhood frogging ponds are gone