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Thread: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

  1. #1
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    Unhappy Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    I wish I could post with more positive news. I joined this forum a while back and up until now I've not had to post much because things were going smoothly with my Pacman frog.

    Some information:

    - He is around 5-6 years old and my fiancé and I had had him for around 5 of those 5-6 years (local pet store was not sure how old he was when we got him, they said he had been sitting in the store for about 6 months)

    - We started him in a 5 gallon tank, we upgraded him to a ten gallon around a year ago

    - He is about 3 inches in diameter and has been that size for a while so we are thinking it's a male. He has croaked when I've tried to move him in the past as well

    - lighting/temp/humidity: white heat light during the day and red heat light at night, 12 hour light cycle. The tank never reaches over 85 degrees Fahrenheit. Humidity rarel reaches over 80%. We mist in there whenever we can

    -Substrate and decorations: coco coir changed about every 2-3 weeks. Poo taken out as necessary. One water dish always filled with new water everyday, a couple fake hanging plants and a tiki head.

    -Diet: He eats about 20-30 Large gutloaded crickets a week. Calcium supplements used every two to three feedings

    The problem: today my fiancé and I decided to dig him out of his hole. He had been in there for about four days and I just wanted to check on him. Good thing I did. Our frog's back right leg appears to be fused. All other limbs are working properly and he does manage to hop around. He is still eating normally. I decided to run him a warm bath just so I could see the leg better as we was covered with dirt. It's very hard to describe this, I will try to link pictures soon. He cannot extend he leg at all. I tried rubbing it while he was in the bath and the skin refuses to budge it literally looks like it's been fused together. I noticed there were some raw red/pink spots on it as well and it is swollen.

    We we will be taking him to our exotics vet tomorrow, the vet is very good and has 30 years experience and has seen our frog in the past for normal checkup. I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea as to why this is happening and if there's anything I can do for him at home currently. Like I said he does not appear to be lethargic and he is acting as normal as a pacman frog can I guess. Any help would be appreciated. I hope to be able to post pics but I don't want to bother him anymore than I already have. I'm away from home currently and if he has burrowed himself by the time I get back I won't bother him. I hope my description is enough.

    UPDATE: I just returned home and he has dug himself a new burrow. I grabbed him 12 crickets in the way home and dusted them just in case and he has already eaten four of them on his own. He really doesn't appear to be "Ill" by any means. I don't want to dig him up and bother him again so no pics for now. If people need more of a description I can try my best. We will still be taking him to the vet tomorrow maybe I can get some pics then. In the meantime any advice is still appreciated.
    Last edited by nmcgowan; June 25th, 2017 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Spelling error And UPDATE

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Could be red leg but if he isn't lethargic maybe not. Or its early red leg.
    Another possibility is a thick layer of stuck shed skin on his leg.
    And another possibility is a broken leg or some other injury.
    The vet will figure it out.

    I would suggest supplementing his diet with some high calorie variety such as an occassional pre killed fuzzy mouse, Rosey red minnows, nightcrawlers, Horn worms or a commercial diet such as Nuance Pacman food, Zoomed Pacman food, or Hikari Pac Attack. A diet of strictly crickets no matter how well supplemented and gut loaded may still lack certain micronutrients.
    I would also suggest removing some of the substrate so that he can't burrow completely out of sight, and inch or inch and a half deep. Just enough so his head and eyes can be poking out. This will help you to better monitor him and his condition without disturbing him


    I would strongly recommend getting rid of the white heat lamp right away
    Bright lighting may harm their eyes and dry their skin as well as cause them to hide more.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Thank you for your insight. For a few days we have been considering just switching him over to heat emitters instead of the bulbs. We try our best to keep up on the frogs facts. When we first acquired him we were recommended a 12 hour light cycle. In the meantime I'll just keep his red light heat bulb on him until I can get more insight from the vet.

    I am one one step ahead of you on the substrate thing. I have cleared some of it out so I can peek at him now. Again, we've always had it around 3-4 inches deep because we read that "frogs may just want to burry themselves once in a while and that's normal".

    My my first post on this forum was about other diet options. I've tried the crawlers and the minnows but he absolutely refuses them and I'm not going to force feed him, I've read that can lead to impaction. My local pet stores and exotic store do not carry the Pacman frog pellets so I may have to order some which isn't an issue. I'm just wondering if he will be willing to eat them. Besides calcium supplements we do use herptivite supplements.

    Here re is something I forgot to add in my original post and you mentioning the skin issue brought it up. About a month back he was out and about hopping and I noticed one of his toes was stuck in the extra skin around his side/leg. Again it was making it so he could not extend his leg. I got him into a bath again and was able to use a quip to get the tie out and all seemed well. I'm hoping maybe like you said it's just extra skin holding the leg back but I will leave it to the vet to rememdy it.

    I seriously hop it it isn't a broken bone. I don't know how he would have gotten one. He has never been dropped or anything like than. I barely handle him because their skin is so sensitive. When I clean his tank I gently scoot him into his travel carrier he never gets "picked up" more than two inches in the air.

    Thank you you for your advicd Ra.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    You can satisfy his light cycle by just opening the curtains in the morning. I'm not saying you let his terrarium get in any sort of direct sunlight but the ambient day time light of the average living room should be plenty fine.
    A low watt ceramic heat emitter would work, as would running the red light during the day
    If your house stays around 65 to 74 degrees F. at night you don't need any extra heat source.
    Another option is a under the tank heating mat placed on the rear of the tank. You really only need to get the tank about 5 degrees warmer than your average room temps. In fact, within their range in Argentina I believe it's about 70 degrees today, and cloudy. Last night was around 66!

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    We are in Upstate NY and even with the A/C his take rarely dips below 72 degrees. Like you said I'm just going to use the red bulb for now. Our apartment is very well lit and has many windows. Tomorrow after his appointment (depending on how things do :/) I will pick up a heat emitter. They seem to last longer than any bulbs overall. Thanks again.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Hopefully it's an easy fix at the vet!

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Yeah 72F is cold.. You need it at least 76F at night. You need 80-85F during the day. Glad to read you will be using a red bulb to warm things up.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Where are you reading that Cranwelli need 76 degrees at night?

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    I'm aware that my own personal care perameters for temps may not be conventional, but most trusted sources say night time dips into the low 70s is fine.


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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Alright update time. I have bad news and I have somewhat good news/hope.

    The vet visit: our vet and his technicians all agreed that our frog Thor is in great health. Optimal weight and size for his age and very active even with the issue described above. Our vet throughoughly looked over the leg in question and he was able to tell off the bat that there was a skin infection going on in the area. He did a "feel over" of the leg and was able to tell that there was something wrong internally.

    We we decided to have X-rays done. It took only one X-ray to see that our frogs leg has a severe deformity. The bones just are not straight in this leg. The vet assured me that it is not MBD but it is some type of bone disease, something that could possibly be related to genetics. We did acquire our frog from a Pet Supplies Plus store so breeding is questionable. All other appendages and bone structures appear to be clear of this issue. The skin infection is caused by the swelling of the leg which is making the skin rub upon itself.

    I was presented with two options, we could either try surgery to "fix" and reshape the bones and use antiobiotics on the skin infection. There is no guarantee that this option would actually be able to help him use the leg again and the infection could just keep returning. The second option is to have the leg amputated. This takes care of the bone and skin issue all in one go. Of course I had hundreds of questions. I wanted to make sure our frog could still live a high quality lifestyle with only 3 legs. He already appears to get around and dig his burrows without this fourth leg anyway and he has no issue eating. My fiancé and I have decided to go ahead with the amputation. I will try to keep you guys up to date.

    I am am fully aware that surgery on exotics like frogs isn't always successful. I know that he may not wake up after being put down for the amputation. At this point we are getting his tank prepared for him to come home after the surgery (he is staying with the vet for now). Any kind thoughts or words are appreciated at this time.

    For anybody curious, this whole ordeal is going to cost around $300. I have always made sure to have money set aside for any of our pets needs so this does not present a problem for my fiancé and I. I'm only listing the cost in case other users end up in the same situation and are looking to compare prices. We know that some people would balk at the thought of spending 300$ on a frog but this wasn't even a question for us. These animals are our responsibility and we have every intention of trying to give our frog the best life possible.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Sounds like the amputation is probably the best option. Best of luck!

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  13. This member thanks Ra for this post:


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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Just wanted to let you guys know that Thor has made it through his surgery and we are taking him home. He has a follow up appointment in 9 days. The vet is going to send the leg out for a biopsy just to try to find out what had gone wrong. Will update as necessary. Thanks again for the replies.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Are you going to keep him on moistened paper towel? Or wetted furniture foam?

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    While the incision is healing the vet recommended we keep him on paper towels and newspaper. I'm changing them out every 4 hours as there is some drainage.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    I have some very unfortunate news.

    My my fiancé and I spent most of last night staying up with our frog. We misted him as needed and made sure his incision wasn't getting swollen or draining to much. At 9am this morning our frog randomly took two large hops and the suddenly stopped moving. When he landed is left back leg was sprawled behind him and his front two legs were underneath him. At this point he was still breathing and I reached in his enclosure and put his leg back at the normal sitting position because it did not appear as though he was going to do it himself. We continued misting as needed.

    Our frog has stopped moving altogether and does not appear to be breathing anymore. It has been five hours since this mornings events and he still has not moved from his landing position. I have tried to gently touch him, used warm water in him and have even rested him in my hand. At one point I thought I felt a twitch but it's just too hard to be sure. We are going to wait at least 24 hours but I do think that he has passed.

    Mat this point there are too many factors to consider to even try to know why this happened. Maybe the procedure was too much for him and he went into shock.

    At at any length my fiancé and I are incredibly grateful to the service of those on this forum. We are grateful to have known our frog for as long as we did and I hope we gave him the best life possible. We tried to do everything that we possibly could do for him. Any kind thoughts are appreciated. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Eyes opened?

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    this is sad; sorry for your situation.

    yet i cannot help but see a little bit of humor in a frog species where it's hard to tell whether it's dead or not. a happy pacman frog rarely moves in the first place.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    I'm going to be frank here. I know you care about your animal but you should really have been letting him rest and recover. Being handled for a healthy frog is stress.

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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ra View Post
    I'm going to be frank here. I know you care about your animal but you should really have been letting him rest and recover. Being handled for a healthy frog is stress.

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    Then I will be just as frank when I say that your last post is highly inappropriate Ra. What's done is done. Also, let me make it clear that at 9 am this morning after his two big hops across his tank I only touched him twice. Once right after the incident to fix his leg from its unnatural position and I did not touch him again until a couple hours later to try and see if he was breathing. Which he was not and his body was already completely stiff. Before this incident this frog had never been handled in his entire life. I don't need someone telling me that it stresses them out. I am aware.

    We have since gotten confirmation from our Vet that he is gone.

    I did everything within my power to give him the best life possible. To say "I know you care about your animal..." and then try to apply guilt to me has to be the most inconsiderate thing I have ever read in these types of forums. It's unfortunate because you started out really helpful. I guess when push comes to shove it's better to try to blame someone for an unfortunate turn of events rather than just accepting the FACT (and yes I say fact because our frog did indeed die of shock) that there was nothing that could have stopped this from happening.

    In the future please think about what you type before you post it.

  22. #20
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    Default Re: Ran into an Issue, Any Help Appreciated

    Not trying to apply guilt but point out a plain fact.

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