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Thread: A diurnal heating question

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Yes I agree that if this is the only way for someone to get there temps then do what you need to do, I wasn't telling him to change anything. I know I'm not huge a fan of putting UTH under the tank with burrowing frogs but that's me, if this is the only way to keep him warm and the right temps to keep the frog healthy then do what you need to do. What I was trying to say is that if he wants it to be natural its the other way around, warmer above ground and cooler under ground. My Siberian Husky is almost like these frogs when its summer. On really hot days she will dig a huge hole out in the yard and she will lay in it, she's not digging these holes to warm up she's digging them to cool off. When her hole becomes warm she will get up and dig deeper or she will go and dig another hole. Its not fun filling holes but its something she naturally does due to instinct. So again if heating from underneath is the only option you have then the keeper should do what he or she needs do, just its not the most natural way to go if your trying to achieve the most natural setup.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    one of the things i am trying to do is to avoid fluctuations in the ground temperature. If I went without a bottom mat, then that temperature fluctuates with room temperature, which is between 62F and 74F. I sort of wish I could keep a room always at 74F, but I don't think I can.

    The mat is mostly heating the wooden furniture upon which the terrarium resides, so the heat is very delayed and indirect by the time it gets to the aquarium glass. I figure the best I can do to simulate this frog's "nature" in my environment is to try to keep the ground temperature static and 'heat' only from the top.

    There is the cold side of the tank. I mat-heat only one side + the water. The frog has access to any temperature it wants. I've seen the frog go to the cold side, doesn't really like it, comes back.

    With the remote thermometer, I find that the little fellow seeks out 83F pretty reliably. Froggy also transpires; it seems that the frog is always two degrees cooler on top than the surface it's on.

    Eh. I feel like i'm paying more attention to this frog than most people do. From what I understand, it also comes from a biome where the weather can be highly variable. So thus the frog is actually a pretty tough critter amongst frogs.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Please dont think i was saying you need to take them off, i do understand that some people dont have a choice to heat there tanks this way. Im fortunate that my frog room isnt that big so with a little space heater in the room in the winter i can achieve 75f fairly easy. I was just saying that outside heat comes from above not from below so if we wanted to get technical heat comeing from below isn't very natural. So ya again if your frog seems happy and hes eating and pooping then i would keep it the way it is.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Cory heat comes in many ways, rocks, soil and water all retain certain amounts of heat and release some back at night, although the air may be cooler. I think heat mats are good at night because one place heat doesn't come from would be from above. A lot of nocturnal snakes and geckos actually use heat retained from the day to heat up or maintian their body temperature, it's been suggested that some frogs do the same. These animals also burrow, yet in captivity they are given heat mats.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    The heat that rocks and soil get through out the day does not last very long at night, go out and touch a rock a couple hours after sun down and that rock isn't going to feel warm its going to feel cool. Its like they say if you were lost in the desert at night when the temp drops its good to dig a hole in the dirt start a fire and let it burn to red ash then cover it with sand and then lay on it to stay warm. This is because the ground doesn't stay warm for very long, it cools off shortly after the sun goes down. And this is in the middle of a desert were during the day its very hot. And at night yes the air isn't as warm as during the day but its still warmer the an inch or 2 under the ground, its just the way it works. And again I never once suggested for him not to use them under the tank if this what he needs to do, I was just stating that in the natural environment at given time of the day the soil under neath the surface is going to be abit cooler then air temp. And yes I understand there is different types of soil and sands but they all will cool off at some point after sundown that's just the way it works.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    It all depends on the temperatures and habitat, put a slate tile or water dish under your heat lamp and see how much it retains after its switched off at night, it will stay quite warm for some time

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    I actually use a slate tile for my beardies basking area and my lights go off at 9 and by 1130 the whole tank and rock is sitting at 75f because this is what the room is set at. I thought before and was curious if the dragon sat on the slate if he would stay warm longer and when I checked it with my infrared the surface was reading 75f.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    That's odd, the rock of mine in the 80F when the rest of the tank drops into the 70sF. I used a heat lamp over my African bullfrogs waterdish and temps would stay in the upper 70sF then dropping to lower all night, even tho my room was at 68F

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Ok then I guess its odd, I know what my tank does at night.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Water takes a lot longer to warm and cool then dirt, soil, sand etc. This is why at night if your on the beach or a coast the air will feel warmer buy the water then inland or mainland how ever you want to say it. The little bit of water that creates moisture in the dirt doesn't act the same as a pool or larger body of water. And with rocks ( stone ) it all depends what the kind of stone it is which will play a factor in how fast it warms and cools. And the part of the rock that gets heated is the part that is exposed to the sun, so if there is rock big enough that its half exposed and half underground the top half will be warmer to the touch then the bottom half due to fact that ground is cooler. The dirt out of the three loses heat the fastest at night and this were they burrow, they don't burrow into rocks. Now I guess if he fell asleep in the water during the day he would stay warmer longer at night. The first 2 feet of earth is going to be cooler at night and day then the air, but it keeps a more stable temp without flucuations because it doesn't have the breeze and stuff to fight with. So when it cools it will cool evenly. The rocks keep them selves warm and the air around it from the heat comeing off of it not the dirt. And any rocks that are under the ground aren't going to heat up like ones exposed to the sun. I know the part of the ground being cooler not just from the research and stuff I have done on horned frogs but also from when I was really big into ants. The ones that are in the dirt stay a dig closer to the surface in the first couple of feet of dirt because it keeps them cool and from overheating. When the frost comes they will try and get down to around the 4 feet mark because this is when it will actually start getting warmer ( I don't think horned frogs bury that far but maybe I'm wrong), so yes I guess if you really want to get technical the fist 2 feet of dirt will be cooler then the 4 feet mark due to atmosphere and core of the earth and all that other scientific stuff. They go down to this mark because the ground here isn't frozen. Once spring comes they will return back up to there normal levels because it is tolerable for them and not freezing. If enough damage is done then they will venture off and build a new home. So out of the three elements mentioned the earth ( dirt ) will lose any heat retained the fastest, and this is were they burrow the most often. Is the rock you have slate? I'm asking because maybe I don't have a slate tile and its another form of stone and this is why yours retains heat longer then mine. I would be a bit peed offed though because they told me it was slate and that's what I paid for. Because out of all honesty my tank is all the same temp 2 1/2 hours after lights out.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    I wrote out a large message on my notes, went to copy it and deleted it, no way of getting it back that I know of — so annoying!

    Anyway, I've just wrote something smaller.

    Most keepers do not provide them with UVB, even though they'll be exposed to it in the wild. Yes, it's been proven that they don't need it, but I've seen no studies to actually show whether or not it can be beneficial. We also don't feed them frogs, which they eat on a lot of in the wild. If everything were perfect in their diet, we wouldn't need to dust their food with supplements. Although not a problem, this indicates that it's not very natural what we are feeding them. Many keepers don't hibernate their frogs, which is natural for them and has been said to increase their lifespan. Only breeders actually breed horned frogs and mating is a large part of their life in the wild. Wild temperatures are never as perfect as in captivity, so there isn't as much need for them to burrow as a means of thermoregulation, most of the time it could be as a way of security or ambush to the prey. If they do feel the need to cool down, they can always select the unheated area. I'd imagine if they were to burrow in the shade, the soil would be different to that of in direct sun. I doubt they actually do burrow deep during their active period. So after that being said, I'd say heat mats are not really a big deal and they have been successfully kept with them. They're adaptable frogs, otherwise they wouldn't be so popular. It's hard to actually provide a truly natural environment, but since horned frogs do eat and live long, I think this suggests that they are happy enough.

    It's a stone I found in the garden, not sure what kind it actually is but it does the job. My ventilation might be different from yours and result in more heat loss. The rock is not near the ventilation, which is at the other side of the tank, on the doors.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Yes my basking area is right by a vent that is on the side of the enclosure, maybe I will move it and see what happens. And Jason I never disagreed with the heat matt on the bottom, my whole point in that long post and this whole thread was just to show that at night when the air temp drops that ground will drop to because it doesn't retain heat like water or a rock. so when he said the substrate was 75f and air at 73f that it should be the opposite way. once the ground loses the heat it retains the frog will feel the drop in the substrate and go the warmer air above ground. It may not lose a drastic amount of heat but it will cool a few degrees and it will be a few degrees cooler then the air temp. And lastnight I typed that paragraph out 3 times for the same to happen that happened to you.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Ahh, this may be making my findings innacurate!

    I've been reading up on the temperatures in the natural habitat of the African bullfrog. Yes this is a different frog, but they are slightly similar to horned frogs — a bit more active, though. It can drop to 20C in their habitat, yet many authors recommended to keep night time temperatures above 23C. I'm thinking that the water retains heat from the day and when the frog goes in at night can maintain its suitable body temperature in the water., thermoregulating from water and land. The soil may even be slightly warmer too, even if it is a few degrees, this can be important to frogs. This might be why sometimes frogs get impacted, because the water is not warm enough and why when you place them into lukewarm water it takes care of the problem.

    I've started to place my heat lamp so it's half over the water bowl and half over he substrate and the frogs going to the toilet more now. I think placing a heat mat under the water dish could work just as well, especially under a plastic container where heat will transfer better.

    Stuff that, what a night mare when that happens. I've been expericing a lot of page errors stopping me from going on frog forum.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Ya i constantly always get this database error thing when trying to log in, or i get the problem from last night. And your probably right about the water and land thing with your frog, once the air and ground temps drop at night they seek the warm water. When he's nice and warm he will venture to find dinner, and if he becomes cool he will go back to the water to warm again.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    I learned tons about how the earth ( ground )heats and cools from ant farming like i mentioned since they spend most there time either on the surface or just underneath. They are very smart and you learn so much from them, if you ever want to venture into something really cool i highly suggest ant farming. Feeding time is just amazeing, watching them work together to take things 10xs there size is really cool. Im actually pondering on getting back into but i want foreign ants like harvesters or something and with all importing and exporting laws its so hard because they can become an evasive species.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    This is actually quite challenging to dial in. Now that I don't use heat mats during the day, I find that in a 68F house, my tank soil temps never gets above 81F with only top-heating. Just not strong enough to overcome environmental losses. So I will up the wattage slightly until I can barely attain my target temp of 84F.

    The glass base of the terrarium is sitting at 75F all the time now, the mats are strong enough to keep it at 75F all through the night without having to resort to any additional heat source.

    The heating and cooling is gradual; it seems to take about two hours or so to transition to night time temps. Not certain how long it takes to get to daytime temps yet, as it never actually got to a full 84F today.

    The automatic timer to assure a 15 hours daytime period for the frog seems like it's having an immediate effect as far as cricket consumption.

    And last night the power went out many times so I know this equipment won't kill my frog after a power outage; it comes back okay.


    ant keeping: search youtube for "AntsCanada".

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Were are you takeing measurements for your day time temp and how? You don't want the soil to be that warm, its your ambient air temp you want at 84f. And to be honest like Jason mentioned before it doesn't need to really be that high, 84f to 85 is the highest that is recommended. A lot of care sheets and people that keep them will say anywhere in between 80f to 85f is were there day time temps should be. I keep all mine at 82 during the day then let it drop down to 77f at night, I used to keep it at 79f but changed it to 77 awhile back. Keeping them at this temp has had no ill effects and they eat and poop like they should and they are pretty big frogs. I know the heat is very important but I think you may be overthinking it and giving yourself headaches for nothing, I would never give you advice that I thought would put your frogs health at risk. Out of all honesty if you can get your daytime air to 82f or 83f your frog will be ok. And ya I know Ants Canada, I had lots of email conversations with him and learned a lot about different species from him. He knows his stuff that's for sure.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Pacman frogs burrow, and mine is a little baby one, so I originally provided only enough media for him to cover himself. An inch, maybe.

    But then I realized that I really need more media due to the fact that the temperature of the bottom of that media tended to be equal to the temperature of the top of that media.

    I have now added media to a thickness of 2 1/2+ inches. This is enough dirt so that my top-heating during the day no longer affects the temperature of the bottom of the cage much.

    Thermostat 1 is taped to the bottom of the cage and is reading 75F. Thermostat 2 is laying on the top surface of the media and reads 84F. I have a nine degree gradient through my soil all day.

    Until I had a sufficient depth of media, the two temperatures read very close. It should be far easier for my frog to thermoregulate now.

    And yes, it's once again chosen a spot that is exactly 82.5F.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    Glad to hear you were able to figure it out. I found when I tried to keep my tanks at 84f when I first started that my frogs would bury and stay in 82f area to. That's why eventually I just made the warm side 82f.

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    Default Re: A diurnal heating question

    I've also noticed the difference between 'dry bulb' and 'wet bulb' temperature. If I measure the temperature of the surface of dry soil, I get 84F. If I go down just a little bit into the moist substrate, it's quickly down to 80F.

    A dry bulb temperature of 85F with a wet bulb temperature of 80F means a relative humidity of about 80%. So that seems about right.

    I guess the exact placement of that top thermostat is important, worth about 5F.

    I've also noticed that with my room ambient humidity of 60%, it's very very easy for a warm moist tank to cool down fast is there's lots of airflow. Any sort of cover helps with that.


    It's like 'price is right'. all you have to do is be within a range to win.

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