Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

[Diver]

Yes, true and I do breed my own roaches, what I meant was that apparently the malamoeba issue is common and not anything that makes frogs sick. I'm told by the guy at one of the local stores I deal with that they test their animals very frequently and these malamoebas show up sporadically and it's just an accepted thing. It's not all the time and the effects are limited to the feeders being a bit less nutritious due to reduced gut loading.

To summarise where I think I'm at with these frogs:

Bought them knowing they were wild caught and therefore possibly issues. Being completely unfamiliar with this species have tried to provide best possible conditions and confirm whether exhibited behaviour was normal or not. Evidence appeared to show stressed but otherwise healthy bar first individual which died a few days after purchase. Second fatality and symptoms of remaining individual point to sickness/disease present. Remaining individual has been treated for bacterial infection and parasites and fecal exam has confirmed no parasites present.
So, I think either there was a bacterial infection which has now cleared up due to the course of Baytril (there has been no recurrence of the nasty looking symptoms pictured above) OR there's a viral infection OR there's a fungal infection.
I'll talk to the vet tomorrow to see what tests are possible, I guess there's obviously Chytrid (but if Chytrid could he still be in relatively good shape after the three months he's been in my care?)
Any other suggestions or anything I've missed as always very welcome!

[Cliygh and Mia 2]

I don't think it's Chytrid, it definitely would have died by now, so I do think it's a feeder issue

[Diver]

Spoke to the vet yesterday, he's adamant that the presence of malamoeba is harmless to the frog and not even entirely harmful to the livefood so I think it can be ruled out. It would also make sense as the issues with these frogs have been present ever since I bought them.
He also agrees that chytrid would have likely finished this animal off long ago if it came with it from the wild, although points out that anything could be lying dormant in the frog's system which can flare up under stress etc.
It seems we've reached the end of medical intervention so I guess it's up to the animal itself now.

[irThumper]

Chytrid is still being studied, so we don't know all of its mysteries yet. My Butter Bean died 29 days after I got him, and Pole Bean lingered 13 more days. Pole Bean was sick and lethargic looking from the day of unboxing while Butter looked and acted seemingly perfectly normal. Your pics LOOK like Chytrid to me, BUT other diseases can have the same symptoms. I would do some skin swabs of your frog to test for Chytrid and whatever other disease can be tested for topically. I'm sorry you've had so many problems with them, I know the feeling

Oh, I would also take the remaining frog out of the big set up and get him into a basic QT tank, something you can manage to break down and disinfect with 10% blach solution every to every other day (clean and bleach food and water dishes daily).

[Strider18]

Sorry to hear about your froggies I don't mean to go off topic here, but are you going to make a build thread for that 8 x 8 x 8 you mentioned? I really hope it gets healed and better, keep us updated!

[Diver]

Sounds sensible irThumper, I think I'll get a Reptibreeze this weekend and put him in that with a simple set up. It seems that bicolor can happily tolerate temperatures up to the mid 80s F but Chytrid does not so a rise in temperature would seem in order too. Can't see any harm in this course of action and obviously if Chytrid is present then it would certainly be helpful.
I can get him to the vet next week in the set up to keep things as low stress as possible for swabs.

Now, from your experience what is it about this frog that points to Chytrid in your opinion? If the evidence is strong enough I do have another potential course of action. As it will take a while to get a result from tests, I COULD start treatment with Itraconazole now (I have some here). The trade off is any possible side effects from administering Itraconazole to an animal that might have something else entirely. It seems you have recent experience and good advice from herp vet over there, what are your thoughts?

[Diver]

Sorry to hear about your froggies I don't mean to go off topic here, but are you going to make a build thread for that 8 x 8 x 8 you mentioned? I really hope it gets healed and better, keep us updated!

Hi Strider,

The project is a little set back at the moment but if I'm able to go ahead I'll put a build thread on, yes. My plan was/is to obtain a group of at least 6-8 bicolor, get them healthy and conditioned and then attempt a breeding project. Unfortunately the first hurdles are proving the most difficult!
This time next week I'll be at the Hamm show and if any are available I'll be bringing them home. My first actions will be to get them screened for Chytrid and get fecals done immediately. If things go well and they are healthy I'll continue the build and the project will go ahead.
Only the base has been built so far, but the finished build is to be a room with controlled ventilation, temperature and humidity with a pond and sprinkler system. The idea of course is to simulate as closely as possible the natural environment with the ability to replicate the changing seasons to attempt the necessary stimulation.
If we get to that stage all that's left is to keep fingers crossed!

[Strider18]

Hi Strider,

The project is a little set back at the moment but if I'm able to go ahead I'll put a build thread on, yes. My plan was/is to obtain a group of at least 6-8 bicolor, get them healthy and conditioned and then attempt a breeding project. Unfortunately the first hurdles are proving the most difficult!
This time next week I'll be at the Hamm show and if any are available I'll be bringing them home. My first actions will be to get them screened for Chytrid and get fecals done immediately. If things go well and they are healthy I'll continue the build and the project will go ahead.
Only the base has been built so far, but the finished build is to be a room with controlled ventilation, temperature and humidity with a pond and sprinkler system. The idea of course is to simulate as closely as possible the natural environment with the ability to replicate the changing seasons to attempt the necessary stimulation.
If we get to that stage all that's left is to keep fingers crossed!

*Crosses fingers* Hope everything goes well!

[Diver]

Well I had to make a judgement call so I went for the treating for Chytrid option. I did a 5 minute bath of 1ml Itraconazole in 100ml of water once a day for 7 days. Hopefully this means that Chytrid is no longer a possibility. Frog seems fine, I'm hopeful of a recovery from whatever it was!

Went to the Hamm show at the weekend and came back with these four poor souls





















They are currently in a Reptibreeze Flexarium and the infected rubs are being treated with Flamazine. I've emptied the 'shower stall' vivarium and disinfected and bleached the hell out of it. After talking to the main guy at one of Europe's biggest frog dealers, I'm going with a different approach from the previous naturalistic set-up. More on that to follow....

[monster]

Hey diver, nice to see your last one from the previous group is feeling and looking better. To save yourself problems and more heart ache I would get these fecal tested as soon as you can and have them tested for chytrid. Maybe the vet you are seeing at the moment will cut you a deal or something, I know it can get expensive. Poor guys, they look like they are rough shape.

[Cliygh and Mia 2]

How could someone even sell them in that condition? It's a shame. I hope that they get better for you!

[Diver]

He had 8 for sale, they've only been in captivity for 6 weeks. To be honest, I picked the worse looking two because I felt sorry for them and I think they stand a better chance with me (I was able to get them straight on to the Flamazine later that day), but also because all that rubbing shows that they are active at least! I was tempted to buy all 8 but my experience with these so far put me off the rather large financial investment (these were a fair bit more expensive than the last ones)
I'll put some photos of the new look enclosure up, it's spartan so will allow for easier collection of fecal samples
I'd like to get Chytrid testing done, I just need to think about the timing. These guys have been stressed to the max and the vet is an hour away so I'm wondering if it would be better to wait a few days before taking one in for swabs. Fecal is easy enough providing they produce of course.

[Diver]

Here's the new look enclosure taking shape. PVC piping of various thicknesses and nice smooth willow canes. Although I didn't see it on the other frogs, apparently wounds on hands from rough wood is one of the biggest problems in captivity so this type of set up is the preferred choice. Makes monitoring food intake and fecal production a lot easier of course and I'll be setting up the CCTV system again to see what these guys get up to.
The frog from the original group is being kept separately in a Reptibreeze but with a similar set up.

[irThumper]

Hi Diver, sorry I didn't get to your post to me, I was totally busy medication my own guys and bleaching the hell out of everything here as well I actually don't have a herp vet, he's a companion pet (dogs and cats primarily) but I know he was a Beardie owner so figured he was my best shot locally. He at least is willing to work with me and do the research and tests and everything that is needed, so that's a relief!

I was just going with a gut feeling on the Chytrid from the sound of your frogs, the posture (though I know it's supposed to be normal for these guys) the not moving or eating, and the difficulty shedding and then hanging out in the water and the way your one frog looked in his death picture The only conclusive way to know is to test, though. I treated my guys with Itraconazole bath solution (made up by the vet) 5 min a day for 10-11 days (they showed absolutely no signs of sickness, so this was preventative measures) and will be getting them tested this week to see where we are at.

I'm crossing my fingers for the poor guys you brought home. I sure hope you can fix them up and they will survive and thrive for you. I am definitely in agreeance about the testing and medicating of the new guys right from the get go. The sooner you can get a head start on any potential problems (other than the obvious ones they already have) the better. Good luck and keep us updated!

[Diver]

No worries Thump, by the sounds of things you'd have probably made the same call? I can't honestly say that there's been any change in the frog's behaviour for having had the treatment, but there has been no recurrence of that nasty blood-looking seepage since the day it happened so that's good whatever the reason.

So the new ones have moved in to their new home, I gave each an electrolyte bath as I moved them in and the cctv is running:



Here's everyone's profile for anyone who wants to play the sexing game!

Number 1:



Number 2:



Number 3:



Number 4:



And the one I've now had for three months, number 5:

[Lija]

The last pic is a female. Sry not able to go through the thread now, will hopefully do so tomorrow. Are you testing/treating guys for parasites? I also suggest to do full on quarantine for everybody separately until tests are negative and you are sure everybody are ok, eating/pooping. Cover the sides or think of something so they won't see much around, it will minimize their stress levels and help them heal better. It's especially the case with recent imports like yours. Also watch for the nose rubs, if flamazine not helping much, get some systemic antibiotics. I found combination of both is the best, but it's doesn't look too bad to use a heavy stuff yet.

[Diver]

Hi Lija, yes the last pic is the female from the first ones I bought. It looks like all four new ones are male to me. A trip to the vet yesterday has swabs taken for chytrid and ranavirus, but I won't get the test results back for ten days or more.
Much faster was a fecal exam (there was a sample in the box one of them came in and also a new one in the cage yesterday morning) which was done immediately by Gary at Cambridge Reptiles for me. Both were positive for small amounts of worm eggs and protozoan.
As far as separate quarantine is concerned, I housed the new ones together as they were shipped together and have been kept in the same enclosure together for the last 6 weeks, I assumed that if one has chytrid of ranavirus then they all would? Or might this not be the case? (They are being kept separate from my original of course)
I've ordered some Metronidazole (Flagyl 250mg tabs) and some Panancur (100ml bottle with 1 ml of suspension containing 100 mg active ingredient fenbendazole),
but I'm finding contradictory information about doseage. The frogs weigh around 100g, any suggestions from anyone who has used these medications with frogs successfully before?
The frogs have also been started on Baytril baths (10% oral solution dissolved at 0.5ml to 100ml water) due to the amount of infected abrasions (hands/feet as well as noses/mouths). The instructions are for 6-8 hours over 5 days but the frogs aren't keen to sit in it that long. I'm sure I read on here 15 min baths were the normal recommendation but I can't find it now. Again, can anyone suggest what the tried and tested method for bathing frogs in Baytril is?

I'm asking for a lot of help again it seems! Hopefully this thread will serve to help others considering this species. I'd love to think that it becomes possible to breed these in captivity, the availability of CB animals would reduce the demand for WC animals which from what I've seen to date can only be a good thing.

[Lija]

I'll pm you with the dosage a bit later, have very limited time now, pls remind me if I forget.
Thats great, you do everything right! you are also right that whatever one have, everybody will. The reason for separate qt is so you can monitor everybody separately, without anybody possibly bullying anyone.,you can clearly see who is eating, who is pooping and how. Also when you start treating and do control testing afterwards, you will be able to do so separately, because you know who's poop is where. It is possible, that someone needs more meds or longer treatment cycle, this way you don't need to repeatedly treat everybody, only those who need it as well you minimize the risk of possible reinfection between frogs.

[Diver]

Thank you Lija! That's really helpful Understood about separating for quarantine period now, I'll look at providing a set of smaller mesh cages. I've got an entire room solely devoted to this project so I can just heat the whole room accordingly to keep it simple.

[Diver]

Well this group is behaving in a similar way to the original frog. Almost never moving, not eating that I'm aware of. There is the odd poop appearing now and then though, and they do go to the water bowl to hydrate. The sores are clearing up nicely and don't appear infected any more. All movements are very lethargic even when picked up and this morning this guy was sitting on the floor with his mouth wide open and a very dark colour. I moved him to edge of the water bowl but he doesn't look in good shape to me:



For comparison to the 'normal' colour:



On the other hand, I managed to pick up a further 4 yesterday which had come from the same Hamm show and were in a shop on the south coast about a 4 hour drive away:









This group is like chalk and cheese compared to the others, they were very active and climbing and leaping to get out of the travelling box both when we put them in and on arrival back home. Two were even in amplexus at the shop (where they were in a relatively small vivarium with moss, branches and plants and being kept moister than mine).
Much more what I would consider normal behaviour compared with mine which sit there and remain asleep even when picked up. More fuel for the mystery !

I'm still awaiting results of chytrid and ranavirus tests...