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Thread: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

  1. #1
    umailtom
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    Default Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    Hi, I'm hoping someone can enlighten me as obviously I'm doing something wrong. I scooped up about 50 tadpoles from drying puddle about six weeks ago and have been trying to get at least some to grow to adults. I'm usually pretty good with animals (and plants) and am a biologist but for the life of me I can't get these little guys to survive more than 10 days or so once the morph into frogs.

    Here are the conditions:

    1. Once they morph I move them to a larger terrarium with a small water dish, lots of plants and coconut fiber - so they don't accidentally eat dirt. Some were dying in the original tank too before I set up the larger second tank.
    2. The water is spring water but initially I was using tap water treated with conditioner - that I use for my fish.
    3. They do eat and I've been feeding them D. hydei and D. melanogaster. There are plenty, the tank is crawling with flies so hunting isn't an issue.
    4. I don't see any red leg or obvious signs of disease when I find them dead.
    5. All of the dead frogs I've found are submerged in water. It's shallow with fern fronds (local plant from where they lived) they can easily climb out of the water onto if they choose as I ensure the leaves or something dips down into the water for them to climb out on.
    6. Temps range from 60-90 degrees and humidity is about 50%. It's rarely reached 90 and I haven't noticed any temp dependent correlation with their deaths.
    7. They have plenty of places to hide and cover from the lamp that only shines on one side of the tank.
    8. They are not over-crowded. They die too fast for that to happen.
    9. I've seen about half grow larger before they get listless and seem to give up, go for a swim and die.
    10. No dead tadpoles.

    Any ideas? I'm running out of tadpoles fast! For those concerned - I never had plans to return them to the wild and understand they may spread disease if I do.

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  3. #2
    Frog Mom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    I'm not an expert, but I do have 7 PCF's that I've been raising from newly hatched tadpoles and I haven't lost any yet. The only things I did different were I had a rock in the water that they really seemed to like to climb onto when they were morphing, and I never put a light on their tank. I just had it at room temperature.

    Anyway, those are a couple of ideas. I hope you are able to figure it out.

  4. #3
    umailtom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    I'm considering that getting them at a store might have been a better way to go. These may have carried some disease. The puddle was pretty funky. Thanks for the reply... Oh, did you buy yours? If so and I can get them online would you mind posting a link to the place?

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    I would try removing the pond and see if that helps. I have a little rock bowl thing that is just barely wet with water for my 4 week old spring peepers. I spray the tank down 1-2 times a day and they actually get most of their water off the leaves. I'm super super paranoid about drowning babies though!
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
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  6. #5
    Frog Mom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    I just scooped mine out of a drainage ditch. I've never seen them for sale. I'm in Oregon and I'm not sure it's even legal to sell them here. In fact, it wasn't legal for me to take them out of the drainage ditch in the first place, but I didn't know that at the time. And now it's not legal for me to release them, but I like them, so it all worked out.

  7. #6
    umailtom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    I'm going to try Amy's idea - sounds genius! I'd never have thought of that on my own. Thank you! Still curious if others have suggestions. It's suspicious I've had maybe 30 or so die so far though.

  8. #7
    Frog Mom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    Good luck! You'll have to keep us updated on how things are going.

  9. #8
    umailtom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Mom View Post
    Good luck! You'll have to keep us updated on how things are going.
    Will do and thanks!

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    The likely cause, in my opinion, is drowning. The next most likely is some sort of disease. Also, while they can tolerate warmer temperatures briefly, drastic, precipitous changes in temperature should be avoided at all cost. You said it gets from 60-90 degrees - how quickly and frequently does it shift in either direction?

    I'm raising 2 pacific chorus froglets. I started out with 5 tadpoles. One died from bloating issues. Another drowned while in the last stages of metamorphosis. I came home one day to find it limp in the water It made me realize that the water level must be extremely shallow to prevent this from happening again. Those couple of days or so from when they pop their arms to the point when their tails disappear are very touchy. The objective is to eliminate the possibility of drowning. That means keeping a water level that is barely enough to keep the morphlings submerged - 1/4 inch or so. It's not the ideal depth - early morphlings which are still more tadpole than froglet will struggle to get used to it, but as long as the water is above their heads, they should be fine. Simply leaving objects and "lifelines" sticking out an otherwise deeper pool will not prevent the occasionally suicidal morphling from finding a way to drown itself.

    The two I have now are in a critter cage lined with a 1.5" thick layer of sphagnum moss. As long as the moss is wet, it provides all the moisture that the frogs need without the possibility of drowning. Every week or so, I wring out the moss and rehydrate it with fresh water, removing feces and dead feeders in the process. I probably won't introduce a water dish until they get bigger.

  11. #10
    umailtom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by killerecho View Post
    The likely cause, in my opinion, is drowning. The next most likely is some sort of disease. Also, while they can tolerate warmer temperatures briefly, drastic, precipitous changes in temperature should be avoided at all cost. You said it gets from 60-90 degrees - how quickly and frequently does it shift in either direction?

    I'm raising 2 pacific chorus froglets. I started out with 5 tadpoles. One died from bloating issues. Another drowned while in the last stages of metamorphosis. I came home one day to find it limp in the water It made me realize that the water level must be extremely shallow to prevent this from happening again. Those couple of days or so from when they pop their arms to the point when their tails disappear are very touchy. The objective is to eliminate the possibility of drowning. That means keeping a water level that is barely enough to keep the morphlings submerged - 1/4 inch or so. It's not the ideal depth - early morphlings which are still more tadpole than froglet will struggle to get used to it, but as long as the water is above their heads, they should be fine. Simply leaving objects and "lifelines" sticking out an otherwise deeper pool will not prevent the occasionally suicidal morphling from finding a way to drown itself.

    The two I have now are in a critter cage lined with a 1.5" thick layer of sphagnum moss. As long as the moss is wet, it provides all the moisture that the frogs need without the possibility of drowning. Every week or so, I wring out the moss and rehydrate it with fresh water, removing feces and dead feeders in the process. I probably won't introduce a water dish until they get bigger.
    I think you guys might be right and drowning is the cause. I removed the dish (well tilted it and left a ankle deep shallow end) last night. There are plenty of other moist and dry areas too they can move around in. I had little issue getting through the morph stages the vast majority lived at least a week with no tail before taking a suicide swim. I just couldn't believe by then (after they actually grew larger and ate flies) they'd drown!

    I have no central air living near the coast so the temp starts out pretty cool in the morning and gradually warms through the day - until I get home and vent the place. Most of the time it's ranged from 67-80 but on hot and cold days it's varied.

    So far today all are fine - I assume as they hide a lot. I did see one that finished morphing yesterday hoping around on a large rock checking out the flies. 24hrs in his new home (separated from the tadpoles and with the other 2 frogs) and all is well.

    Fingers crossed...

  12. #11
    umailtom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by umailtom View Post
    I think you guys might be right and drowning is the cause. I removed the dish (well tilted it and left a ankle deep shallow end) last night. There are plenty of other moist and dry areas too they can move around in. I had little issue getting through the morph stages the vast majority lived at least a week with no tail before taking a suicide swim. I just couldn't believe by then (after they actually grew larger and ate flies) they'd drown!

    I have no central air living near the coast so the temp starts out pretty cool in the morning and gradually warms through the day - until I get home and vent the place. Most of the time it's ranged from 67-80 but on hot and cold days it's varied.

    So far today all are fine - I assume as they hide a lot. I did see one that finished morphing yesterday hoping around on a large rock checking out the flies. 24hrs in his new home (separated from the tadpoles and with the other 2 frogs) and all is well.

    Fingers crossed...
    Well, as promised I'm reporting back: 10 days and not a single dead frog. Many have grown quite a bit in fact. Who would have thought a 3/4in deep, small dish inside of a much larger terrarium would be something fully morphed frogs would commit suicide in!?

    Thanks for all of the advice!

    Tom

  13. #12
    Frog Mom
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    Default Re: Dying Pacific Chorus Frogs

    I'm so glad that you updated us and that things are going so well. I don't know how my frogs survived because they were in a container with a few inches of water for awhile after they morphed. I guess I am lucky.

    Yay for healthy frogs!

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