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Thread: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

  1. #1
    sepgundamrg
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    Question Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Hi, after seeing the thread about keeping multiple darts together ina smaller tank, I would like to ask about keeping them together in a larger tank. I have recently aquired a new tank that is over 160 us. gallons in size. The tank is only 2ft tall and is a large octagon. The internal length of the tank from side to side is 44 inches, and unfortunately I didn't get the length of the individual sides. I got this tank for either a bearded dragon, or a dart frog community. I would love to do darts in it(already gathering supplies such as small tree trunk for the center) but I would like to keep more then just 1 color morph. I have seen large tanks with different colored darts in them before and would like to know the verdict on keeping multiple similar sized species together in this tank. I know it still isn't as large as a forest, but it is definitely larger then the usual vivarium they are kept in.

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  3. #2
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Well, the dart frog community will likely chew me out for saying this, but if you insist of multiple types of darts, how about tincs of various colors and markings. At least this way they will be all the same species and you will have variety. There are blues (azureus), Oyapoks, citronellas, powder blues, cobalts, reginas, and so on.

    Why the dart frog community frowns upon this is because they do not want any "mutts" mudding up the gene pool. They, like myself are purists. We don't like hybrids and the like. We like things the way nature created them.

    Now if I were setting up that tank I would either house blues or Oyapoks in it.

  4. #3
    sepgundamrg
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    I read on one dart site after making that post that it was ok to keep different genus of darts together since they cant inter breed, as long as they have the same housing requirements. Whats the boards opinion on this information? by genus I mean d.xxxxx and p.xxxxx

  5. #4
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Dendrobates and Phyllobates. Not sure what web site you speak of. In theory, there would be no cross contaminations because captive bred dart frogs are suposedly non toxic. Not sure I 100% buy that. One thing to consider is the fact that a lot of dart frogs are terratorial and thaty could present problems.

    Like I said, if it were I that was putting this tank together, I would stick to one species.

  6. #5
    sepgundamrg
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Amphibiancare.com >> Mixing and Keeping Different Species of Reptiles and Amphibians Together

    Certain species of poison dart frogs (Dendrobatids) have been kept together successfully by some hobbyists. Avoid any species that could potentially produce hybrids, instead sticking to dart frogs from different genera such as Dendrobates azureus with Phyllobates bicolor.

  7. #6
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Well, that is Devin Edmonds site, so I will support his opinion. He has been working with amphibians longer than me and has published two books, that I know of.

  8. #7
    JeffX
    Guest

    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    From my brief interest and study of Dart Frogs it's always been frowned upon. Doesn't mean it can't be done especially that size of tank. However I wouldn't do it though.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    If you wanna mix, and I understand the temptation, how about sticking with species that naturally occur together. Something like Costa Rican species (Dendrobates auratus, Phyllobates lugubris, Oophaga pumilio) not only will they not interbreed, but they are basically from the same habitat.

    Alex

  10. #9
    sepgundamrg
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Quote Originally Posted by tylototriton View Post
    If you wanna mix, and I understand the temptation, how about sticking with species that naturally occur together. Something like Costa Rican species (Dendrobates auratus, Phyllobates lugubris, Oophaga pumilio) not only will they not interbreed, but they are basically from the same habitat.

    Alex
    Thats what I'm wanting to do, they will have the same care requirements and they would have many more colors then just 1 species. As for the species I get, I would only get 1 morph of each.

  11. #10
    nx2ured
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Please do not mix different species of darts especially Tincs as they WILL fight (and you are guaranteed to lose frogs) and will also interbreed. interbreed. Even the Auratus (different color morphs WILL interbreed). Why not just stick to a group of auratus, imitators, leucs, or galacs as they can be kept in groups and will not die from stress if placed into a tank full of various morphs.

  12. #11
    Wyomingite
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Kind of an old topic, but have a query, folks. On a slight variation, can a species of dart frog be mixed in a large vivarium with a tree frog species? This is making the assumption that all stock is from a reliable source, disease free, have similar ambient requirements for humidity, temperature, etc. and will have minimal conflict in daily activities.

    FWIW, from a purist fish guy, the potential of hybridization as well as crossbreeding of morphs within a species truly needs to be minimized, especially when dealing with species, subspecies and morphs that may be threatened in the wild. The introduction of DNA from an outside source, whether another species or a color morph of the same species, will alter the genotype, reducing the usefulness of and/or rendering the bloodline useless in later breeding programs. In addition to not having a pure genotype, the resulting offspring may carry recessive traits which may not appear immediately, but may manifest as undesirable or deleterious phenotypic traits in later generations. I've had a similar discussion with many fellow cichlid enthusiasts who see no harm in hybridizing fish that they plan on keeping, and admittedly many hybrids are attractive in their own right. However, if these hybrids are irresponsibly or accidently passed into general circulation, well...entire bloodlines of a species could become lost. Interspecies injection of DNA into a bloodline should only be practiced in the extreme circumstance of a genetic bottleneck in a species, and then should be practiced with caution.

    My hands-on experience is mainly with ungulates and carnivora at a higher level and is a bit out-dated, and with fish as a hobbyist. Not too familiar with Anuran genetics, but I feel safe sayin' that I'm sure plenty of frog and toad hybrids are fertile in the F1 generation.

    Not tryin' to irritate anyone, I know an opinionated, know-it-all newb can be a bit irritating. Have had a few at my home site, FWM. Just wanted to throw some food for thought out there for somethin' I feel strongly 'bout.

    WYite

  13. #12
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Quote Originally Posted by nx2ured View Post
    Please do not mix different species of darts especially Tincs as they WILL fight (and you are guaranteed to lose frogs) and will also interbreed.
    So its kind of like the Jerry Springer Show? Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!

  14. #13
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyomingite View Post
    Kind of an old topic, but have a query, folks. On a slight variation, can a species of dart frog be mixed in a large vivarium with a tree frog species?
    Still not a good idea. Cross contamination comes to mind. Also darts love it humid! Treefrogs require good ventilation. Its hard to imposssible to provide both.

    Also I agree 100% on your stand on hybrids. Now we can just get the snake people to feel the same way.

  15. #14
    Wyomingite
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt View Post
    Still not a good idea. Cross contamination comes to mind. Also darts love it humid! Treefrogs require good ventilation. Its hard to imposssible to provide both.

    Also I agree 100% on your stand on hybrids. Now we can just get the snake people to feel the same way.
    Mayhap naivete is showin' here. It seems to me with solid quarantining and good hygiene and maintenance practices that risk of cross contamination between two species within an enclosure wouldn't be any more or less likely than species in adjacent enclosures.

    Hybridization is a fairly common practice in snake husbandry then, I take it? That's too bad.

    WYite

  16. #15
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Hybridization is way to common in snake herpetoculture.

    By cross contamination, I mean poisoning and not infection or the spread of diseases and pathogens. Like said earlier, treefrogs and darts have totally two different husbandry requirements. What is good for one, is not good for the other.

  17. #16
    Wyomingite
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Thanks. I picked up the comments on the differences between tree frogs and dart care. I didn't even think of poisoning, I was thinking completely in terms of diseases. Not too common a problem with fish; toxicity in that realm is usually due to envenomation or consumption, rarely due to contact. I can see there is gonna need to be a bit of a paradigm shift .

    WYite

  18. #17
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    You're welcome.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    I've seen it done in zoos, and that famous Discus Breeder, Jack Wattley would house them together in very large display tanks, just not for breeding them ( though he breeds them as well.)
    .

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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Ra, I've a nice photo of a hybrid of two tinc morphs, photographed in a famous zoo. Just because zoos do it, it doesn't make it right. As for keeping different things together, I think most dart frog enthusiasts wouldn't have a problem with mixing different races of tincs as froglets or juveniles but as maturity approaches they would of course be separated. The same would apply to young auratus and leucomelas.
    Founder of Frogforum.net (2008) and Caudata.org (2001)

  21. #20
    james67
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    Default Re: Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt View Post
    Well, the dart frog community will likely chew me out for saying this, but if you insist of multiple types of darts, how about tincs of various colors and markings. At least this way they will be all the same species and you will have variety. There are blues (azureus), Oyapoks, citronellas, powder blues, cobalts, reginas, and so on.

    Why the dart frog community frowns upon this is because they do not want any "mutts" mudding up the gene pool. They, like myself are purists. We don't like hybrids and the like. We like things the way nature created them.

    Now if I were setting up that tank I would either house blues or Oyapoks in it.
    hello all, i see that this is a pretty old thread, but it seems that more could be said on the topic, and since im bored why not let this be my intro to this site (some of you may know me from DB).

    as far as mixed enclosures go, your right kurt, they are highly frowned upon, and generally as one researches more, they come to the same conclusion. however the logic in the statement you made may be based on some misinformation. IF a mixed enclosure in absolutely necessary it is HIGHLY recommended (and for good reason) that different morphs of the same species NOT be used. the problem lies in the frogs ability to interbreed (same species/ different morph). this is the real concern. many morhps are nearly identical and creating hybrids can occur even if the keeper is trying to prevent it. it wouldn't be the first time that someone realized "hey i used to have 5 frogs, now i have 7". at this point the hybrids could potentially blend in with the parents, etc. and that's when breeding is attempted to be suppressed, and all known offspring are culled.

    auratus, leucomelas and tinctorius WILL interbreed as well. they are related closely enough to "do the deed"

    moral is... IF you have to mix PLEASE dont mix morphs. this is the most dangerous type of mixing, not to mention that as another member stated, tincs (in this case) will battle and it often results in the loss of an animal from stress and starvation.

    james

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