Need advice, again.

[Kisa]

Hey guys. This time my problem isn't so serious, just a small concern.

Over the weekend I caught a cold that's been going around in my neck of the woods. I just wanted to ask what the protocol is when handling a frog when you're sick.

Tonight is feeding night for Bruce (WTF) and usually I take him out of his viv and place him into a smaller container for feeding since he seems to have trouble finding crickets if I just throw them into the viv with him. I have latex gloves (non powered) that I used to carry him around when he was sick a few weeks ago after he developed some pesky lesions on his leg (that have since gone away) and was planning to use those to transport him into his feeding box and then back into his viv. I have also thought about covering my mouth and nose with something to prevent my disease-riddled breath from getting onto him (I have terrible sinus congestion and a horrible cough, I feel like a bad of mucus ).

Is this ok to do tonight? If anyone has any better suggestions I would love to know, I wish I could just throw the crickets in his viv and be done with it but he won't eat if I do that.

Note: Also, I don't handle the crickets with my hands, I have a nifty little tool that my friend made me out of a paper towel roll that I can catch the crickets with and then shake them in with Bruce, so there's no chance of sickness spreading there.

Thanks so much for any suggestions you guys might have. If it's not safe to handle him at all I really need to know so I can have someone help me feed him tonight.

Thanks,
Kisa

[bshmerlie]

Sounds like Bruce is a little spoiled and if you want to add to you frog population he's going to have to learn to eat on his own. I don't think your breath is going to hurt him. Just don't kiss him.

[Kisa]

Sounds like Bruce is a little spoiled and if you want to add to you frog population he's going to have to learn to eat on his own. I don't think your breath is going to hurt him. Just don't kiss him.

Haha he is a bit spoiled. >>;

I tried feeding him inside his viv twice because I wanted him to get more exercise (luckily he's started climbing the sides of the cage and exploring on his own with out the incentive of food so I don't have to worry about that so much any more) but the crickets run off into the back of the viv and scurry up the styrofoam backing to into a space between it and the screen top where Bruce can't see them or get to them, even if he tried. I am planning on getting one more WTF, probably by the end of the this week or the beginning of next week (and hopefully a blue phase...>>) and was planning on adding him into Bruce's viv near the end of March, to make sure he's properly quarantined. If I continue to feed Bruce outside of his viv will it effect his ability to hunt? I'm just worried if I continue to put crickets in there I'll have a whole nest in the back behind the background, and THAT would be outrageous. >< And if I add another frog I'm worried about the fact that Bruce may not eat well and the other WTF might grab up all the food. Is this a concern I should keep in mind? D:

Do you have any suggestions for feeding to keep the crickets from escaping Bruce all the time? I tried to fix the background so there's no space between the top of it and the screen top but to no avail, it just kept sliding forward and creating a bigger space. D: I've heard about feeding dishes and such, but won't the crickets just hop out of it and run off...? Feeding became a concern as soon as I got Bruce's new viv, I just don't want him underfed, especially after having to nurse him back to health from the edge, I would die if I had to do that again. ><

And don't worry, no matter how tempting it is I promise I won't kiss him...>> At least until I'm all better...XD;

Thanks for the reply, I was really worried about breathing on him for some reason. I know you can pass sickness like that from human to human, I just wasn't sure if it was the same for frogs.

[clownonfire]

I just had to commend you Kisa for the Metric quote on your signature. Makes me proud to be a Montrealer (and after Arcade Fire yesterday at the Grammys...).

[Dog Shrink]

I really don't think what ever is ailing you will contaminate your frog. There are very few diseases that are zoonotic simply because what can live at our body temperature won't live in a frog's body temperature. I'm pretty sure that the majority of things that can be zoonotic are more like parasites, tapeworms, ringworm, stuff like that. Rhino virus and the like... not so much.

[DonLisk]

Put your crickets in a bowl inside his viv so they have little chance of getting enough traction to climb the sides or jump out of the bowl. The just remove the bowl after Bruce eats.

Its not fool proof and occasionally some escape but at lease he will have a place to go get them when hes ready.

[Kisa]

I just had to commend you Kisa for the Metric quote on your signature. Makes me proud to be a Montrealer (and after Arcade Fire yesterday at the Grammys...).

Thanks for the nod Eric, we always seem to have too similar a taste in music. XD Metric is wonderful, I have to give props to Emily Haines for having such a beautiful singing voice and deep, yet relatable lyrics. She is truly a goddess.

[Kisa]

Put your crickets in a bowl inside his viv so they have little chance of getting enough traction to climb the sides or jump out of the bowl. The just remove the bowl after Bruce eats.

Its not fool proof and occasionally some escape but at lease he will have a place to go get them when hes ready.

Oh my gosh now I feel stupid. :/ Thanks Don, I don't know why I didn't think of this. >< When I thought feeding dishes I thought of a smaller container with no walls to keep the crickets in. DUH. I'm going to try that tonight. If no one has objections I'll update this thread with Bruce's success!

IK even have the perfect little bowl...geez. >>

[Kisa]

I really don't think what ever is ailing you will contaminate your frog. There are very few diseases that are zoonotic simply because what can live at our body temperature won't live in a frog's body temperature. I'm pretty sure that the majority of things that can be zoonotic are more like parasites, tapeworms, ringworm, stuff like that. Rhino virus and the like... not so much.

Thanks Kel, this is exactly why I posted this thread. I wasn't positive but I thought somehow that my cold could ail Bruce in someway, your reply has eased my mind on that matter.

Last night my boyfriend picked Bruce up and I lost it on him because he is still getting over the same cold, I told him he should never hold Bruce if he's sick/ Just an over reaction on my part, guess I have to go apologize now. >>

Quickly, I heard that staph can also transmit to frogs, is this true? Just curious.

[Dog Shrink]

That is a tough one.. there are several different strains of staph infection Saphylococcus aureus (MRSA) being the most commonly seen. Several different frog species defend themselves against invading pathogenic microorganisms by producing and secreting antimicrobial peptides.
"A manner of self preservation against invasive disease such as staph. The results showed that the frog skin secretions has significant antimicrobial effect against MRSA. The range of inhibition zone for MRSA was the same as (20mm) Vancomycin in DISK method. In Minimum Inhibitory Concentration method, for MRSA, the tube 1/8 was positive." http://www.celljournal.org/library/u...cle/Abbasi.pdf

Finding this specifically for whites tree frogs I wouldn't think stpah would be a concern. Snip from a book called "Frogs By David Badger, John Netherton"


I don't think staph is a worry for your whites. It is very unusual for humans to pass disease to herps and herps to humans. It is more likely to have a zoonotic issue when dealing with warm blood to warm blood species and even at that it is very rare.

I do think you owe the BF an apology.

[Kisa]

That is a tough one.. there are several different strains of staph infection Saphylococcus aureus (MRSA) being the most commonly seen. Several different frog species defend themselves against invading pathogenic microorganisms by producing and secreting antimicrobial peptides.
"A manner of self preservation against invasive disease such as staph. The results showed that the frog skin secretions has significant antimicrobial effect against MRSA. The range of inhibition zone for MRSA was the same as (20mm) Vancomycin in DISK method. In Minimum Inhibitory Concentration method, for MRSA, the tube 1/8 was positive." http://www.celljournal.org/library/u...cle/Abbasi.pdf

Finding this specifically for whites tree frogs I wouldn't think stpah would be a concern. Snip from a book called "Frogs By David Badger, John Netherton"


I don't think staph is a worry for your whites. It is very unusual for humans to pass disease to herps and herps to humans. It is more likely to have a zoonotic issue when dealing with warm blood to warm blood species and even at that it is very rare.

I do think you owe the BF an apology.

WOW thanks that was really informative. O:

This kind of eases my mind, I had a problem with staph a while ago (which has since cleared up with antiobiotics) and it suddenly popped into my mind a few days ago while I was checking Bruce (his tummy is seeming a little bloated lately, not sure if this is something to be worried about or not, sometimes it seems like he's full of air and other times he seems fine, it could just be my overactive imagination).

I heard some other things about White's having potentially healing properties when it comes to HIV, this could be a misunderstanding I'm not sure I read it somewhere online before I picked up Bruce while I was doing my research. Amphibians are truly wonderful animals, they have so much to offer in the pet industry and otherwise and I was surprised to learn that they make great companions, at least in my case. My dad didn't want me to get a frog because he said they were "boring" and would just sit around all day doing nothing but taking care of Bruce has been a joy, I can't wait to expand my collection. ><

Thanks again, I suppose what I thought was a simple question was a bit loaded. XD;

[Kisa]

Hey guys, just an update.

I tried Don's bowl idea and it worked beautifully, at least this time. At first I was worried that the bowl I had was too deep, so I buried it in the coco fiber where the water bowl was (I took it out as there is not a lot of space in the viv on the ground otherwise) and tilted it slightly toward the inside of the viv. I was worried at first that the crickets would escape but they didn't, they just slid around in the bowl until Bruce found them (I think he was confused by the bowl at first but eventually he caught on). He ate all three and then went on his marry way, I even found a congratulatory poop! (This is exciting because Bruce was recently constipated, for those who are confused.)

Thanks Don, I think I'm going to be using the bowl from now on, worked like a charm and the crickets were helpless. XD

[Dog Shrink]

I'm glad you found info useful, and I believe it was the magnificent tree frog that has been contributing to the cure of cacer that I read about http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fears+...es.-a060553207. Not only has the Whites been used in HIV research but they believe that several tree frogs contain the peptide that is assisting in the blocking/killing of the virus. http://www.examiner.com/small-pets-i...-aids-research

Find something new about our cold blooded friends every day aye THIS imo is why conservation is so important. You never know how mother nature can benefit the human race, but then again it opens up a whole 'nother realm of bastardizing nature for our gain. I think it's a huge clue that mother nature made them resistant and us not... frogs will one day rule the world

[Kisa]

I'm glad you found info useful, and I believe it was the magnificent tree frog that has been contributing to the cure of cacer that I read about http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fears+...es.-a060553207. Not only has the Whites been used in HIV research but they believe that several tree frogs contain the peptide that is assisting in the blocking/killing of the virus. http://www.examiner.com/small-pets-i...-aids-research

Find something new about our cold blooded friends every day aye THIS imo is why conservation is so important. You never know how mother nature can benefit the human race, but then again it opens up a whole 'nother realm of bastardizing nature for our gain. I think it's a huge clue that mother nature made them resistant and us not... frogs will one day rule the world

Thanks for all these articles Kel they're really something! And I agree with you about frogs ruling the world, they're truly wonderful creatures. I wish more people could respect them and the others animals that have their environments threatened every day by our selfish needs. I live in an urban area where the closest forest is at the library and even that has been controlled and fashioned to fit the needs of the "community" that lives around it. I wish I was lucky enough to even have a front yard, but the closest thing I have is a concrete balcony and a driveway. The world needs as much greenery as it can get, especially in heavily populated areas. The air out here is heavy with pollution and dirt and it only gets worse with each passing day. There is only so much one person can do...

But off that morbid topic, go frogs!

[DonLisk]

Nice how informative this thread has become. Some great reading.

As for the bowl.. ... I use it with my Red Eyes all the time. I rarely have crickets running around the viv and they know where to eat.

I do it occasionally for the whites but one frog will eat every cricket so I just toss crickets in and let them hunt them now.

Glad to see Bruce is doing well :-)

[Kisa]

Nice how informative this thread has become. Some great reading.

As for the bowl.. ... I use it with my Red Eyes all the time. I rarely have crickets running around the viv and they know where to eat.

I do it occasionally for the whites but one frog will eat every cricket so I just toss crickets in and let them hunt them now.

Glad to see Bruce is doing well :-)

Yeah for real Don. XD

I'm worried about using the bowl once I get another WTF in the viv with Bruce but hopefully by then I'll have a rebuilt viv with less hiding places for crickets and more ambush spots for the frogs. XD

Yeah I'm really glad he's doing well too, there's nothing more rewarding than nursing a sick frog back to health and reaping the benefits. ^ ^

[Dog Shrink]

Maybe once you get the new viv built you could still possibly use thedish for Bruce if he seems fond of it, and scatter a few free range crix for the new guy to hunt and catch. Maybe he'll teach Bruce how to hunt

And thank you for the compliment Don... or at least I'll take it as one referring to how informative the thread has become. I think the questions were really good and worthy of a deeper explanation that just yes or no. I'm the type that likes to give proof with my answers for future readers to see the research for themselves.

[Kisa]

Maybe once you get the new viv built you could still possibly use thedish for Bruce if he seems fond of it, and scatter a few free range crix for the new guy to hunt and catch. Maybe he'll teach Bruce how to hunt

And thank you for the compliment Don... or at least I'll take it as one referring to how informative the thread has become. I think the questions were really good and worthy of a deeper explanation that just yes or no. I'm the type that likes to give proof with my answers for future readers to see the research for themselves.

That's a good idea Kel maybe I'll try that out. I plan on leaving the new frog alone once he gets here, I was a little too touchy and looky with Bruce when I first brought him home. I hadn't properly read up on covering the cage walls and letting the animals acclimate. I was so excited I wanted to be up in his face all the time, and that probably lead to some of the problems he had with his health. At least his appetite didn't go completely down the drain, THAT would have been scary since he's always been such a crazy eater. But when the new frog gets here I'm going to have him in Bruce's old "sick tank", properly sterilized of course, on paper towel substrate so his bowel movements, appetite, and health are easy to monitor for the first thirty days. I think all I'm going to put in there at first is a water bowl, a log to hide in, and maybe a stick to climb just in case he gets too bored. It's going to be a hard run trying not to bother him and watch him all the time, but I'm gonna try my best.

When I first got Bruce I set the crickets free in his viv (it was a small 10 gallon) and they had nowhere to hide so he had no problem hunting but when he was sick I wanted to watch his appetite and weight closely so I started trying a more "hand fed" approach, which is probably why it's hard for him to hunt now. As soon as I fix that gap in the background and make it harder for the crix to hide I'm going to set them free in there and see what Bruce does. His eyes have healed quite well, so I don't forsee any problems with him seeing the food.

Oh, and this is totally unrelated, but if I do get a new frog and quarantine him for thirty days, what do you guys think a good size would be before I put him into the viv with Bruce, so theirs no "frog eat frog" action, if you know what I mean. >>

Right now Bruce is 2 1/2' but he might get bigger before it's time to introduce the new white's, I'm not foreseeing him growing any more than a half and inch in that time. It is safe to assume I can put the new comer in when he's bigger than Bruce's mouth and won';t be able to be eaten, even if Bruce tries, or should I wait until they're roughly the same size in body?

Thanks, I know I might have a lot of stupid questions, but that's what these threads are for right? Communicating and learning. ^ ^;

And that's a very good quality to have Kel, putting up articles and information to back up your claims is always the sign of someone whose done their research and knows what they're talking about.

[Dog Shrink]

Why thank you Kisa... that is why I know what I do know is because I do research... If I don't know the answer I do my best to find out and give proof. I'm an animal behavior specialist (specialise in canines) and have had my credentials called into question several times on other dog forums (which is why I don't go to them anymore, not enough room for their egos and my intelligence ) so in order to avoid arguement or BS calling I find it best to be able to back up whatever you say.

As far as when to put Bruce and his new friend together they really aught to be pretty close in size in order to avoid the whole frog eat frog thing I would say.

[Sugar]

I have latex gloves (non powered) that I used to carry him around when he was sick a few weeks ago after he developed some pesky lesions on his leg (that have since gone away)

Apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but handling amphibians with any type of glove is something that should be avoided.

Amphibians can have adverse reactions when exposed, regardless of the material (latex, nitrile, vinyl, etc.), or presence or absence of powder. These types of gloves can retain manufacturing residues and can perpetuate epidermal tears.

I've found that the best route is limited handling with clean hands (completely rinsed), dried, and then moistened.

~Aja