Hybrids?

[Animalnstinct]

This has been on my mind for a bit and I figured I would just go ahead and ask. I know that placing two different species together is highly not recommended from people both in the frog and non frog community.

However, I have noticed that it seems a bit more accepted in the frog community like with the fantasy pacman being a hybrid. I was just wondering why that is and if I'm maybe missing something?

[poison beauties]

Hybridization is actually frowned upon by most of the amphibian community though more so outspokenly by dart frog hobbyists. I see it this way, we are in a hobby that has so many shapes, colors and varieties of amphibians why do we need to create an unnatural one?
By the way I am a very out spoken Dart Frog Hobbyists so my opinion is one sided.

Michael

[ARMS87]

Hybridisation is a method of evolution, non african humans are about 4% neanderthal according to new evidence. The way I see it, it's adding to the variety of this world and amphibians are a declining group..

More philosphical than practical help, my opinions are essentially if you can without causing suffering, go for it, just get as much help as possible, and of course you'd have to be realistic is the choices for mixing.

Ever saw a Tigon? Liger? Half Zebra Horses? Mixed Cats and Dogs.. etc etc

[wesleybrouwer]

A mix between cat and dog ? How?

Personally i am not for hybrids.
Some hybrids don't show they are....untill a few generations later.
The frogs that are in the hobby, won't necesseraly be introduced from the wild again.
So polluting the bloodlines may cause losing a pure species in captivity all together.

Why pacmans are crossbred? No idea, maybe just because a new color will get more money or something?
The Fantasy frogs are invertile as well, so why bother anyway?

I think crossbreeding isn't always in the best interest of the animal,
more for human enjoyment or economical purpose.
Why breeding snakes with the weirdest colors that can't even move properly anymore,
or bearded dragond, so called "leather backs".
They miss the scales on the back, not a wise choice for a species that need to sunbath.

[Eric Walker]

By the way I am a very out spoken Dart Frog Hobbyists so my opinion is one sided.

Michael

ha ha , thats an understatement michael.

I totally agree though. and no clue what they are thinking with those fat frogs.

[ARMS87]

A mix between cat and dog ? How?

Personally i am not for hybrids.
Some hybrids don't show they are....untill a few generations later.
The frogs that are in the hobby, won't necesseraly be introduced from the wild again.
So polluting the bloodlines may cause losing a pure species in captivity all together.

Why pacmans are crossbred? No idea, maybe just because a new color will get more money or something?
The Fantasy frogs are invertile as well, so why bother anyway?

I think crossbreeding isn't always in the best interest of the animal,
more for human enjoyment or economical purpose.
Why breeding snakes with the weirdest colors that can't even move properly anymore,
or bearded dragond, so called "leather backs".
They miss the scales on the back, not a wise choice for a species that need to sunbath.

Mixed breeds of dog, and mixed breeds of cat, not cat and dog together!

The word polluting implies that one of the species is inferior

Did you mean infertile? Odds are there will be a pair that are fertile born at some point..

Mixing can create an animal with superior traits than it's parents.
In humans trying to keep bloodlines free from novel traits creates disease and insanity :P something the royalty of europe and the nazis never thought about. I personally think the most beautiful women are the offspring of an asian and a caucasian

Again not giving practical help, just an argument for the principle of mixed breeding

[smashtoad]

I think crossbreeding isn't always in the best interest of the animal...

This subject always ends in the same way...an argument.

If animals can successfully breed and produce fertile young, they are usually a stronger animal overall, and obviously, God or Mother Nature (however you swing) is cool with it too. Line breeding is much more detrimental in the long run, but you can't convince some people of that, even though pure bred dogs and their line bred issues are well known.

Some folks seem to think that keeping two varieties of D. tinctorious (for example) from different sides of a river seperate, because one has leg stripes and the other has leg spots, has some significance in this life and should be observed at all cost.

Personally, I find the whole thing silly. It is as if someday we're gonna have this huge reintroduction party and turn everything loose, and they all have to go back exactly where they are from, and if you turn them loose somewhere else, Al Gore gets to publicly flog you on a special live edition of Sixty Minutes.

If someone wants to keep their animal line pure, great. But if someone else wants to hybridize something, that should be fine too. The good thing is that they can whine and moan all they want...and that's about it.

If I could have a ten inch toad colored like a bumblebee toad, I wouldn't give a **** how it was produced, or where it came from.

To the mods: When you censor the word c - r - a - p, it makes people think I used another word, which I didn't.

[Tony]

Mixed breeds of dog, and mixed breeds of cat, not cat and dog together!

You are comparing man-made varieties to wild forms that have evolved over many thousands of years or more in response to the unique selective pressures of their environments. It is an apples and oranges argument.

Some folks seem to think that keeping two varieties of D. tinctorious (for example) from different sides of a river seperate, because one has leg stripes and the other has leg spots, has some significance in this life and should be observed at all cost.

If those two forms of tinctorius represent distinct populations in the wild, then they absolutely should be kept separate in captivity. It has nothing to do with the phenotype, some populations are polymorphic but interbreed freely like Bastimentos Island pumilio, and some populations that are widely separated in nature express similar phenotypes like the various green and black auratus. What is important is maintaining the genetic integrity of our captive populations, if they don't interbreed in nature then they should not be interbred in captivity. It doesn't matter if YOU think a particular barrier to gene flow appears significant or not, if that barrier is enough to segregate two distinct wild populations it doesn't matter how small it seems.

[Whistly]

Not really about frogs but I hybridize my Bengalese and Zebra finches and they turn out fine and I've had no problems and if anything they look better than the pure bred finches, so if you can try and get two frogs with beautiful markings they should turn out quite good also ARMS87 a zebra x horse is called a zorse and another cross breed is the polar bear x grizzly bear so if it happens in nature I'm sure it can happen in captivity.

[poison beauties]

My question is why? If you cant find a natural variation or color bird, fish, frog or dog you probably are in the wrong hobby as we have about the biggest selection available next to plants and insects.
9 out of 10 times its all about the $$$. If our hobby wasn't 90% of small business's we really wouldnt have this issue. Up until a couple years ago it was a much rarer occurrence, now the new generation of ''hobbyists'' want to breed for the money. Otherwise we wouldn't see nothing but ''Proven Pairs or Sexed Pairs or Groups Wanted''

There is nothing in this hobby that a hybrid can fix, we are losing many of them in the wild and I'd like to think a few people would like to hold onto whats left, not alter it.

Michael

[smashtoad]

If those two forms of tinctorius represent distinct populations in the wild, then they absolutely should be kept separate in captivity. It has nothing to do with the phenotype, some populations are polymorphic but interbreed freely like Bastimentos Island pumilio, and some populations that are widely separated in nature express similar phenotypes like the various green and black auratus. What is important is maintaining the genetic integrity of our captive populations, if they don't interbreed in nature then they should not be interbred in captivity.

WHY must they be kept seperate? WHY is it important? You "purists" love to announce, proclaim, and / or decree what should be, but you can't come within Pluto of a coherent WHY. Give it a shot. If you can't tell...I don't like it when people use caps at me and insult me as if I'm a lesser zoological entity.

It doesn't matter if YOU think a particular barrier to gene flow appears significant or not, if that barrier is enough to segregate two distinct wild populations it doesn't matter how small it seems.

Sure does...matters a lot. They're in my house, see. I'm the one breeding them . I am aware there are those who would love nothing more than the ability to call Brady Bahr on me, so he could kick my door down and rescue my frogs from the horrible prospect of a stronger gene pool...but the thing is, I would destroy that tail grabbing wimp...man I can't stand that guy...king of the Irwin wannabes.

Besides, next week a rockslide bridges the river and voila! Natural hybrids! Whooda thunk it??? So you're saying we should not, ever, do something that occurs naturally all the time? Nah...thanks anyway.

Not really about frogs but I hybridize my Bengalese and Zebra finches and they turn out fine and I've had no problems and if anything they look better than the pure bred finches, so if you can try and get two frogs with beautiful markings they should turn out quite good also ARMS87 a zebra x horse is called a zorse and another cross breed is the polar bear x grizzly bear so if it happens in nature I'm sure it can happen in captivity.

Dude...you are puttin some panties in a wad...back away slowly before they turn into that kid in school who had to be crying before he could fight, but when he started, look the heck out, cause he's coming like a feline berserker...kickin, bitin, pullin hair, and screamin in a language only Chris Crocker understands.

[poison beauties]

like you said NATURAL HYBRIDS, not idiot produced outcrossed Tinctorious Morphs. They are infact sperated by natural barriers and yes natural hybrids do occur, but to say you want to cross them purposely here maes no since. Why? Do you not have enough options as to color and pattern in this hobby? Do you really want to end up on the list that floats around the dart frog hobby on known hybridizers and be considered an outcast to which people will not accept frogs from you or sell you any? Think I'm joking? I bet if anyone else knows me they know I'm not, you seem to just want to start **** but go over to DB or DF and announce you liking of Hybridizing Dart Frogs, Even feel free to mention your practicing it. I will be waiting. Either way you name is known.

Michael

[smashtoad]

My question is why? If you cant find a natural variation or color bird, fish, frog or dog you probably are in the wrong hobby as we have about the biggest selection available next to plants and insects.
9 out of 10 times its all about the $$$. If our hobby wasn't 90% of small business's we really wouldnt have this issue. Up until a couple years ago it was a much rarer occurrence, now the new generation of ''hobbyists'' want to breed for the money. Otherwise we wouldn't see nothing but ''Proven Pairs or Sexed Pairs or Groups Wanted''

There is nothing in this hobby that a hybrid can fix, we are losing many of them in the wild and I'd like to think a few people would like to hold onto whats left, not alter it.

Michael

C'mon...why? Beauty, mystery, imagination, creativity, the wonders of nature and all the things we have yet to find out. You wouldn't want a fantasticus the size of a female mint if it were possible? Bullcrap.

Nothing in the hobby hybrids can fix? I have a trio of yellow terribilus that I have had for over two years. One is perfect, one has a "goiter" the size of a jelly belly on one side of it's throat, and the third has a crooked back and a slightly gimpy leg. No one, including the well respected breeder I bought them from, has any clue why...they just do. So, now my $300 trio that I spent two years raising is essentially worthless because I cannot in good conscience breed them.

So I'd say there are things that hybrids can do...starting with healthy frogs. So guess what? Enter the mints...stay tuned.

[smashtoad]

like you said NATURAL HYBRIDS, not idiot produced outcrossed Tinctorious Morphs. They are infact sperated by natural barriers and yes natural hybrids do occur, but to say you want to cross them purposely here maes no since. Why? Do you not have enough options as to color and pattern in this hobby? Do you really want to end up on the list that floats around the dart frog hobby on known hybridizers and be considered an outcast to which people will not accept frogs from you or sell you any? Think I'm joking? I bet if anyone else knows me they know I'm not, you seem to just want to start **** but go over to DB or DF and announce you liking of Hybridizing Dart Frogs, Even feel free to mention your practicing it. I will be waiting. Either way you name is known.

Michael

Wow...enter Chris Crocker.

Told ya...didn't even take 5 minutes. Hey Skippy...take your dendroclique and shove it. If I produced terribilus that were grass green...you think I would have trouble selling them? If so you are a moron.

[wesleybrouwer]

Come on, it doesn't have to do with improving a species.
What improves a leatherback bearded dragon apart from it being "worth more"?
Or a snake with lovely colors, it just can't crawl straight forward anymore.

So we can go on.

Hybrids, are just man desciding that they don't have to respect nature,
they just do whatever they feel like.

Not in the interest of the animal, no just to please themselfs.

Like already said before, there are so many species, why do you possibly think you have to alter them?
This is what takes the world down, altering everything in nature, if that was supposed, nature would have taken action long before you even opened you're eyes.

I can tell you why you got yourself crooked animals,
nowadays, everyone like to get everything ashore.
Even if the froglet isn't doing so well, they just seperate it to let it grow some more.
I also have some bad froglets sometimes, buy they never make it to adulthood,
i am not going to overthrow them with food in a small viv just to let it survive.

As the say, money is the root of all evil.
And they are kinda right.

[poison beauties]

C'mon...why? Beauty, mystery, imagination, creativity, the wonders of nature and all the things we have yet to find out. You wouldn't want a fantasticus the size of a female mint if it were possible? Bullcrap.

Nothing in the hobby hybrids can fix? I have a trio of yellow terribilus that I have had for over two years. One is perfect, one has a "goiter" the size of a jelly belly on one side of it's throat, and the third has a crooked back and a slightly gimpy leg. No one, including the well respected breeder I bought them from, has any clue why...they just do. So, now my $300 trio that I spent two years raising is essentially worthless because I cannot in good conscience breed them.

So I'd say there are things that hybrids can do...starting with healthy frogs. So guess what? Enter the mints...stay tuned.

I have no interest in making Fants the size of terribs. I have favored the ranitomeya for years and have been working with them since 2003, If I wanted anything it would be for better husbandry all around. Id like to see better management and tracking of all lines, and locales here. There are too many unknowns still in this hobby to go off and create more.

Sorry to hear about your terribs but **** happens. Well respected breeders or not it happens and I dont see any reason you cant seek out another for the pairing of your healthy yellow terrib. I know many Breeders that could help you out there depending on the sex but juvies arent hard to get.

Your not going to fair well in the hobby with that opinion, Its been proven time and time again that its undesired by the hobby, Crossing terribs or whatever is just stupid knowing we have many unrelated lines to open up the genetics pathways with. Crossing locales is not needed.

Michael

[poison beauties]

Wow...enter Chris Crocker.

Told ya...didn't even take 5 minutes. Hey Skippy...take your dendroclique and shove it. If I produced terribilus that were grass green...you think I would have trouble selling them? If so you are a moron.

Maybe not but it would NOT be respected breeders/ hobbyists that bought them which again proves my point that all the hybridization and selective breeding for new traits is all about the money. How long have you been in the Dart Frog hobby and what well respected hobbyists agree with your views on this? I can name plenty that share my views both seasoned hobbyists and new. Ive been in this hobby since 1999 and EVERY hobbyist that shares those views are looked down on if not completely shunned.
Before 1999 I was breeding other herps and yes I know hybridizing and selective breeding is all they are about now. That is where many new amphibian hobbyists come from with those views.

Michael

[bshmerlie]

The thing with darts is that they body shapes all look alike. So sometimes its just the color or certain markings that separate different lines. If we start cross breeding it muddies the water. Now someone could unknowingly buy a frog thinking its one thing and it might not be. Yes I know everyone loves their mutt dog ....you've seen them...the german Shepard poodle mix. But when you look at them you know its a mutt. There is no confussion about it. But with darts that's not the case. It can be hard to tell. So keep them separate so that the original colors and markings will still be there for future generations of frog nerds. Please keep the conversation civil this does not have to be an argument.

[clownonfire]

I got myself some popcorn. This is more entertaining than the last season of Dexter.

I am with the hobbyists, on this one. It's this pompous humankind desire to temper with everything that confuses me. It doesn't matter if we're able to create a brand new set of morphs. It's not our place. If it happens out there, in nature, then let it take its natural course. There's no need for us to change or add or to modify. It serves no purpose. If anything, with the decreasing population of frogs, why not put our efforts into preserving the endangered existing species?

Now my keyboard is all buttery.

[Tony]

WHY must they be kept seperate? WHY is it important? You "purists" love to announce, proclaim, and / or decree what should be, but you can't come within Pluto of a coherent WHY. Give it a shot. If you can't tell...I don't like it when people use caps at me and insult me as if I'm a lesser zoological entity.

Why? Because that is how they evolved and exist in nature. This hobby is about recreating, preserving, and appreciating a small slice of the natural world in our homes. Creating hybrids is an act of arrogant disrespect toward the product of millions of years of natural selection, it destroys nature instead of preserving it. If you want to be that guy there is nothing I can do about it, but don't expect to be able to sell many of your hybrid froglets. If you want to play mad scientist why not breed leopard geckos, corn snakes, or another species that has already been screwed with beyond recognition and spare frogs that fate?