Leaves?

[Chopper Greg]

Ok, I'm in the planning stage for my next set-up, and I debating the virtues of the various types of substrate.

Normally ( it's been a few years ) I just blend a mix of coir and/or sphagnum, sand, and aspen wood chips, until I have something that drains, yet holds moisture reasonably well, and it's worked ok, but now I think it's time to move on to something a little less generic.


One of the things I would like to do this time is to serve as a better host for spring-tails and the like, but do so with an eye for being compatible with an Appalachian and/or Willamette Valley ecology and one thing I keep hearing about on a number of forums is the use of leaves, yet in my searching I have yet to find any hard core information about actually using leaves in a Viv.

So what is the truth about using them?
Why would I want them and why would I want to avoid them?

I'm just trying to keep from being to ignorant, as to my substrate options.

[hyla]

Alot of people use leaf litter over soil or coconut fiber. It helps to keep the substrate off the frogs as well as other benefits. I dont think any kind of wood chips are recommended due to the fact they could be accidentally swallowed.

[ninnato]

Alot of people use leaf litter over soil or coconut fiber. It helps to keep the substrate off the frogs as well as other benefits....

Hi Kristy, it’s not my thread but I would like to thank you anyway for the “coconut fiber”.
I didn’t know that but I’ll probably try that next time – sounds like a good idea!

[hyla]

Your welcome

[Chopper Greg]

Alot of people use leaf litter over soil or coconut fiber. It helps to keep the substrate off the frogs as well as other benefits. I dont think any kind of wood chips are recommended due to the fact they could be accidentally swallowed.

I never had a problem with it, but then again it was more like orchard bark than chips that most people envision ( perhaps .3/4-1" long and a 1/4" wide ) large enough that it would take some effort on the part of the animals to ingest - and once wet it stayed in the substrate rather than move to the top. After a couple of months it was partially decomposed, acting more like a sponge than wood.


Back to leaves......

I guess part of the problem is that I am seeing leaves from this type of tree or that type of tree for sale, but often what I see for sale on one list, I also see listed on other web pages as not being good for tanks for one reason or another.

Locally I have a choice between maple, oak, grape, ash, cottonwood, aspen, rose, raspberry ( and then there are the leaves of the plants I considering for my next set up ) yet trying to find out which ones will cause ( or will not cause harm ) to my Viv appears almost next to impossible, for no two lists ever seam to agree on what is ( or is not ) Viv safe - and there is the frustration in my search.

[John]

I culture springtails on wet coconut husk (the big chunks). For grow out containers for little dart frogs, I've taken to using just that and then a layer of leaves from "Live Oak" (a species of tree). It works superbly, particularly if I add a few white worms from an old grow out container.

For long term terrariums for frogs that aren't at risk of ingesting chunks of substrate, I use a thin layer of coconut husk above the drainage layer. This is covered in a layer of ABG soil mix (search the forum for Atlanta Botanical Gardens). Not all of the exact components are natural to the Appalachians, but they have very close counterparts there.

[Chopper Greg]

I culture springtails on wet coconut husk (the big chunks). For grow out containers for little dart frogs, I've taken to using just that and then a layer of leaves from "Live Oak" (a species of tree). It works superbly, particularly if I add a few white worms from an old grow out container.

Where do you find the chunks ( I must admit that my Google-fu is not strong )

For long term terrariums for frogs that aren't at risk of ingesting chunks of substrate, I use a thin layer of coconut husk above the drainage layer. This is covered in a layer of ABG soil mix (search the forum for Atlanta Botanical Gardens). Not all of the exact components are natural to the Appalachians, but they have very close counterparts there.

I confess that I am a bit of a gardener, and with that experience and having seen the Ultimate Clay Thread over at Dendroboard, there are some parts of it that make a heck of a lot of sense to me, just as ABG mix does - there is also a part of me that would like to experiment with Terra Preta even though it's not normally occurring in the Appalachians.

I have been giving a lot of thought to trying to work up a cross between ABG mix and clay substrate to go under the leaves ( but this is something that I am still debating on ) - I guess - part of where I'm trying to go with this thread, is that I'm trying to answer the following:

1. What leaves do I avoid at all costs, and why?
2. What leaves are going to be good for my Viv, and why?

I have gone on line and looked in various forums and web sites, and no one seams to agree.

[John]

Where do you find the chunks ( I must admit that my Google-fu is not strong )

I usually buy compressed bricks of it over the internet (for example, from joshsfrogs.com - they are one of our sponsors but I do actually buy from them). Actually the most recent brick I bought was from Petsmart or Petco but only because I needed just 1 brick and it was cheaper than mail order to get just 1 brick. You can also buy it uncompressed in bags at Petsmart and Petco, and from online pet stores.

I confess that I am a bit of a gardener, and with that experience and having seen the Ultimate Clay Thread over at Dendroboard, there are some parts of it that make a heck of a lot of sense to me, just as ABG mix does - there is also a part of me that would like to experiment with Terra Preta even though it's not normally occurring in the Appalachians.

Quite frankly, I don't see an issue with using any of those substrates, provided the animals you're keeping are not at risk of ingesting sharp particles and such. It's not like the chemicals and structures are unique to those ingredients. What _are_ you keeping in there any how?

I have been giving a lot of thought to trying to work up a cross between ABG mix and clay substrate to go under the leaves ( but this is something that I am still debating on ) - I guess - part of where I'm trying to go with this thread, is that I'm trying to answer the following:

1. What leaves do I avoid at all costs, and why?
2. What leaves are going to be good for my Viv, and why?

I have gone on line and looked in various forums and web sites, and no one seams to agree.

Answering number 1, there aren't that many tree species that produce "toxic" leaves. Off the top of my head, I actually can't think of a deciduous tree that does. So I wouldn't worry so much about that aspect. The main concern I would have is how long you want the leaves to hold up in the terrarium - thin flexible leaves like maple/sycamore will rot very quickly in comparison to the dart frog favorites of magnolia and "live oak".

I suppose that answers both of the questions to some degree. If you want to get into more specifics, please go ahead.

[Chopper Greg]

Quite frankly, I don't see an issue with using any of those substrates, provided the animals you're keeping are not at risk of ingesting sharp particles and such. It's not like the chemicals and structures are unique to those ingredients. What _are_ you keeping in there any how?

Nothing as yet, it's all in the planning stages.

As for the species under consideration-

Hyla arenicolor - Canyon Treefrog is my top preference and if I can't, Pseudacris regilla - Pacific Chorus Frog if I can not obtain some Canyon Treefrogs.


I'm still debating the following -

Enneacanthus gloriosus - Bluespotted sunfish ( at 2.5 inches, it's a little bigger than I would prefer, but not as shy as many of the smaller species ).
Notophthalmus viridescens viridescens - Eastern Newt.

Answering number 1, there aren't that many tree species that produce "toxic" leaves. Off the top of my head, I actually can't think of a deciduous tree that does. So I wouldn't worry so much about that aspect. The main concern I would have is how long you want the leaves to hold up in the terrarium - thin flexible leaves like maple/sycamore will rot very quickly in comparison to the dart frog favorites of magnolia and "live oak".

I suppose that answers both of the questions to some degree. If you want to get into more specifics, please go ahead.

I have heard that leaves from nut trees often harbor toxins ( at least in the case of walnuts it may be just plant toxins but I'm not so sure that I want to take the chance ), and I know that Black Locust and Cherry leaves are toxic to livestock, and wintergreen leaves also have a compound that can be toxic if to much is consumed, and that is the reason that I finally removed it from the list of candidate species, to plant in the tank.

As for holding up in the tank, I'm not so worried about having to replace them often, if I have a local supply - in fact, to a degree if it means that I'm supplying the micro fauna in the tank with new food, it actually works out for the better in the long run ( at least if I'm thinking things out correctly ).

[Judy S]

I have wondered about the same thing...what species of dec. trees to use for the litter...and what is so special about magnolia leaves..? Size? And why just "live" oak versus the other more readily available oak species, i.e., red, white..etc. Since I have so many trees that I have planted on this farm about 85, I have a good selection. Do I cut off a branch and let them dry or do I wait for the fall when they shed..at which point in either case I would sterilize them...Thanks for guidance!!

[JimO]

I actually sell and ship a lot of live oak, magnolia, and bay leaves. The main reason people like them is that they are durable. Most leaves with toxins would not affect an animal unless they consume the leaf and I believe that toxins begin to break down when the leaves dry.

If you want to maintain a local look to the tank, you might consider mountain laurel or rhododendron leaves, which are thick and probably would hold up well in a damp viv environment.

I'd be happy to sell you some leaves, but I only sell in bulk (1 cf (7.5 gal) or more) and I'm sure that if you only need a small quantity, something local would work. The deciduous oaks would work as well, but if the substrate is too wet, decayed leaves get messy and for species that don't like their feet wet all the time, this wouldn't be the best set up.

[Judy S]

thanks for the reply...interesting..but the live oak thing still has me curious why that specific species rather than so many of the oaks...Since I'm in the Rhododendron Society (ARS)--I have PLENTY of leaves, particularly after THIS season...sort of a surprise though because they are poisonous to so many animals!! Especially laurel...Thanks again...Judy