Hello from Atlanta GA

[SethD]

Im sorry if you guys actually belived I produce or try to produce hybrids.

Michael

Don't worry, I doubt many if any people did, I imagine most of us know militant anti-hybrid anything dendroboarders on crusade when we see them over here.

[SethD]

The simple answer is greed. The first to create a hot new fad will usually pocket a bunch of cash.

From a purely logical perspective the same would be true of situations where pure but difficult to obtain and highly desirable species are brought in in limited numbers. Yet when a breeder manages to legally get a new species or morph of poison frog everyone expects the prices of the initial CB offspring to be high, he is expected to make some money, and nobody rails against the greed of the breeder for not initially selling them in the same price range as a readily available CB species like auratus.

People who are so millitant that they stress about hybrids in species they don't even breed themselves need to loosen up a bit and realize that most people keep frogs because they like them, not because they are trying to save the planet. If someone wants a hybrid pet frog 90% of the time it is no skin off any other hobbyists nose. The same goes if someone wishes to produce hybrids.

[poison beauties]

Im well known on DB and I debate these issues often there. If its ok to talk hybridization here why cant I speak out against it? If you have not noticed since Ive seen you on DB that our hobby has taken a turn for the worse due to stuff like this. Selective breeding and Hybridization have been debated for a long time and are still considered to be ok or even a good thing by many yet site data and quarentine testing and treatment which I have practiced for many years are not even known by many in the herp hobby. Why is that? They are clearly the most important of the 4 and yet what wins out? Greed does. The want to create something unnatural in order to make a quick buck before the fad dies or the market floods. Them what happens? The hybrids become 20 dollar throw away frogs as people refer to many other cheap frogs as and they mix something else. Like I said a few of you know me and know I have a good rep in the hobby with many references. If I was out to stir the pot I could and would. Im just fed up with seeing this hobby turn into the next joke. Look at pythons and geckos. Why go there? Amphibians are one of the first things to disapear the wild when things happen. I think a natural representation is all we need. There is nothing more beautifull. But if you want to go to DB and argue we can..... I will have the upper ground there.

Michael

[boabab95]

Well said mike. And very true.

[SethD]

Im well known on DB and I debate these issues often there. If its ok to talk hybridization here why cant I speak out against it? If you have not noticed since Ive seen you on DB that our hobby has taken a turn for the worse due to stuff like this. Selective breeding and Hybridization have been debated for a long time and are still considered to be ok or even a good thing by many yet site data and quarentine testing and treatment which I have practiced for many years are not even known by many in the herp hobby. Why is that? They are clearly the most important of the 4 and yet what wins out? Greed does. The want to create something unnatural in order to make a quick buck before the fad dies or the market floods. Them what happens? The hybrids become 20 dollar throw away frogs as people refer to many other cheap frogs as and they mix something else. Like I said a few of you know me and know I have a good rep in the hobby with many references. If I was out to stir the pot I could and would. Im just fed up with seeing this hobby turn into the next joke. Look at pythons and geckos. Why go there? Amphibians are one of the first things to disapear the wild when things happen. I think a natural representation is all we need. There is nothing more beautifull.

Well it is just a little humorous that five or six people from dendroboard that never posted over here before come over to post against hybrids after tony's little lecture against horned frog hybrids in the "pacman" section the other day. "Maybe" it is just chance and tony didn't have some kind of a hand in this, who knows, but it sure does look like somebody went and recruited some dendroboard buddies to back him up either directly or indirectly. Your fear of a $20 "throw away frog" doesn't make much sense either since there are a great many "pure" frogs for under twenty dollars and some are even CB.

But if you want to go to DB and argue we can..... I will have the upper ground there.

No kidding. I think one would be stoned there if one suggested that there was a place for hybrids in the hobby and no matter if one personally liked them or not, they weren't the end of the world. It is far more fashionable to rail against it. I tell you I sure wish dendroboarders would put half the energy into apposing the addition of amphibians as "injurious animals" under the lacy act unless "certified" chytrid free that they do into apposing hybrids. That is an issue that could potentially cause far greater harm to the hobby than hybrids ever will.

[Tony]

tony didn't have some kind of a hand in this, who knows, but it sure does look like somebody went and recruited some dendroboard buddies to back him up either directly or indirectly.

Nope, I am perfectly capable of standing on my own.

[bshmerlie]

But if you want to go to DB and argue we can..... I will have the upper ground there.

Michael

Why does it seem like we're being invaded by DB members looking to argue? Reminds me of Jerry Springer, people just looking for trash talk.

[boabab95]

Well it is just a little humorous that five or six people from dendroboard that never posted over here before come over to post against hybrids after tony's little lecture against horned frog hybrids in the "pacman" section the other day. "Maybe" it is just chance and tony didn't have some kind of a hand in this, who knows, but it sure does look like somebody went and recruited some dendroboard buddies to back him up either directly or indirectly.

By chance for me... I just found the forum, so i joined...I doubt Tony would do that.

[SethD]

By chance for me... I just found the forum, so i joined...I doubt Tony would do that.

Ok, I will take your word for it, but you must admit that it looks odd when several new members(including some names I know from from dendroboard) show up at the same time and promptly start fussing about hybrids and introducing themselves with sarcastic "I hybridize this and that" posts. Especially when the topic of hybrids has been pretty much a non-issue on this forum up until the other day.

[bshmerlie]

If you guys are so passionate about this why don't you get a couple of guys from both sides of the arguement, call up Jerry, and see if you guys can get on the show. All the name calling and trailer trash talk fits the Springer format. Then we can see you guys throw some punches at each other. That's how I see it. I agree with Seth, why don't you put your energy where you can really help the hobby. By the way, my red eyes took offence to the $20 frog comment.

[Tony]

I agree with Seth, why don't you put your energy where you can really help the hobby.

Educating people on why solid genetic management is a good idea IS helping the hobby. Preserving frogs in captivity that are vanishing in the wild is much more valuable than creating a bunch of hybrid frankenfrogs and losing the species they were made from.

[poison beauties]

Like I said $20 dollar frogs whether pure or hybrid are continuously being looked at like a throwaway frog. Take Auratus for example. Have you noticed how in just the last year or so the average new member gos straight into thumbs and pums and all but says the cheaper beginner frogs are worthless. That is what I meant by throw away frogs. I think frogs are frogs and Im probably the least greedy frogger in the hobby if you want to know a bit about me. When I see hybrids pop up why do they aways charge so much for them if its not about greed? Even the idiots that think we buy it when they post up oops my frogs bred on accident the frog all of a sudden gos to the highest bidder.
I heard about the hybrid fight on here and while I know Tony from the boards he sure did not bring me here. I am my own person and Im more than capable of telling people what I think. If there is anything wrong with buying a twenty dollar frog I know nothing of it as Ive had everything from firebelly toads to R. Reticulata and have bred them all and given them away free to many. Not just froglets but actual groups of them. I did not join this hobby to make money and I do not buy on value or on the idea of what I can make back from breeding it.
No to the Jerry Springer appearence if anyone has an issue with me I will gladly meet then at any meet or show Im able to attend.
Its funny how all the complaining parties come out when a rant against hybrids pops up. I wonder what thats all about. Almost like someone told you about the post. Just like I heard so No need to blame others for my showing up. I wonder how long I will stay here. Ive honestly got all the contacts in this hobby I will ever need. I came over here to help where I can and it seems its needed.

Michael

[SethD]

Educating people on why solid genetic management is a good idea IS helping the hobby. Preserving frogs in captivity that are vanishing in the wild is much more valuable than creating a bunch of hybrid frankenfrogs and losing the species they were made from.

How many frogs in the hobby, pure or not would fit the criteria for introduction? Very few if any. How many frog species have been "lost" due to captive hybridization? None that I am aware of. Your objections tend to be more based on emotion than fact. That is fine, but just because your emotional about the issue it doesn't follow that everyone who doesn't see it exactly as you do is wrong. It is a hobby for enjoyment after all, different people enjoy different things. Further, some 'frankenfrogs" as you call them, occur naturally in the wild in many places, it isn't the end of the world. Wild hybrids are well documented in numerous north american toad species with overlapping ranges, and natural hybrids also occur in some toads of the melanophryniscus group whose ranges overlap and doubtless in many other species as well. If we had the ability to better document frogs in the wild I think you might be surprised how many species hybridize in the wild upon occasion when the conditions are right.

[Tony]

Feel free to point out where I said anything about reintroduction. As far as natural hybrids (aka intergrades) go, I have no ethical issue with them because they are a natural occurrence unlike fantasy frogs or captive dart hybrids.

[boabab95]

I dont mind wild hybrids either, but like tony said, when frogs that dont cross paths in nature, are mixed, then I don't want them, i'd rather have natural than "same environment" hybrids(i.e. saying because they are both from the rainforest, they can be mixed.)

[poison beauties]

And Yes natural hybrids do occur but they are are still within a locale or region. And they are unlikely to be common or reenter the gene pool. If you have any knowledge on the natural hybrids you would know that they are not being kept in vivs and bred. The frogs also fair just as much chance if not more to breed with their own species in the wild which is not offered by these people in captivity. As you said the regions and territories do cross. yet many of the hybrids are left sterile and do not continue the gene pool which keeps things in balance,
When you throw a few frogs of different species in a viv its nothing more than the interest of creating a fad or profit that results in many more frogs that flood the market.

Michael

[SethD]

Like I said $20 dollar frogs whether pure or hybrid are continuously being looked at like a throwaway frog. Take Auratus for example. Have you noticed how in just the last year or so the average new member gos straight into thumbs and pums and all but says the cheaper beginner frogs are worthless. That is what I meant by throw away frogs. I think frogs are frogs and Im probably the least greedy frogger in the hobby if you want to know a bit about me.

Auratus has been in the 20$ range for many, many years, sure sometimes you would see them for more than that but you could always get them in the 20$ range if you kept any eye out. Prices for those have not come down a great deal. As far as beginners going "straight into thumbs" I think that is fueled more by snobbery in the dart frog community than anything. There is a perception(and it tends to be accurate) that if other people in the dart frog community don't think what you have are "advanced" level dart frogs you won't get any respect and will be looked down on. Beginners want to fit in, be accepted and be respected so they are often influenced by what gets the hype rather than picking what they would pick if they were not influenced by what others thought was more "difficult" or rare. They think if they have pums thumbs or what ever else happens to be "in" people will respect them more and that indeed is often the case. You fuss about "throw away frogs" in the dart frog community but in reality it is peer pressure and a desire for respect within that community that causes a lot of those problems. You want to change that? Get a lot of already respected members in the dart frog community to start singing the praises of "common" species like auratus and pretty soon everyone will be doing it. That is how it usually works.

When I see hybrids pop up why do they aways charge so much for them if its not about greed? Even the idiots that think we buy it when they post up oops my frogs bred on accident the frog all of a sudden gos to the highest bidder.

They don't, fantasy horned frogs are usually around a 30$ frog. If it was so easy to do that "idiots" could "accidentally" make a lot of money off hybrids you would see a lot more of it. I could just as well say new dart frog species or morphs coming into the hobby are "all about greed" since they tend to be considerably more expensive than any hybrid frog. I don't complain about greedy dart froggers and say that breeding rare darts is all about money though because I recognize it is just capitalism at work and if someone can sell a CB histo for a thousand dollars more power to them.

[bshmerlie]

Tony weren't you the one who purchased the imported red eyes with white eyes just a month ago? You can't tell me you didn't buy them simply because they looked cool and different. And when you breed them you'll be charging more for the ones that have the white eyes. Just because a hobbiest didn't make those white eyes doesn't make it different. You'll still be breeding for a variation of the normal Red Eye. And didn't we just say that the original colors were best. Also, if we want to get into another ethical arguement. Why would you find it ethical to purchase wild caught red eyes when they are so abundantly available as captive bred? Aren't you encouraging the frog trafficers to keep taking frogs from the wild no matter how many die before they are ever sold to the public?

[boabab95]

There is a perception(and it tends to be accurate) that if other people in the dart frog community don't think what you have are "advanced" level dart frogs you won't get any respect and will be looked down on. Beginners want to fit in, be accepted and be respected so they are often influenced by what gets the hype rather than picking what they would pick if they were not influenced by what others thought was more "difficult" or rare. They think if they have pums thumbs or what ever else happens to be "in" people will respect them more and that indeed is often the case.

thats not completely true. I know a couple froggers (not naming names) who only own "beginner frogs" are are HIGHLY respected in the community.

[SethD]

Feel free to point out where I said anything about reintroduction.

If that is not your intent then on what basis do you say a "pure" species is more valuable than a hybrid? If there is not going to be a reintroduction the only purpose a captive frog serves is as a pet and therefore it doesn't make much sense to say that a "pure" pet frog is superior to hybrid pet frog. They are both just pets in that case, nothing more, and pets are a matter of personal taste. Certainly nothing to fuss at others about if their tastes differ.