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Thread: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

  1. #21
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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Also would you recommend force feeding him any dubias or worms or should I stick to the liquid mixture?

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by apr0705 View Post
    I like your suggestion, but I dont know if I could exactly do that because the tap water in my area is very contaminated so I have to treat all of it before I use it with the toads, so it would be a bit hard to shower him for that long out of a jug..although I would love to do that. For now I'm just gonna give him warm baths before and after feeding on the feeding days, does that sound like it would be enough?
    Oh no, then definitely don't do it out of the tap. I think you could try to get crafty and creative to rig a way to do it with the treated water you can use. Certainly keep doing the warm baths like the Dr. said.
    I have a very deep well and the water has no impurities whatsoever, no metal imbalances, and the ph is neutral. Has a little sulfur but I have a large, inline filter system that catches it before it gets into the plumbing.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by apr0705 View Post
    Also would you recommend force feeding him any dubias or worms or should I stick to the liquid mixture?
    I think you should stay with the Vet's prescription.
    Did they schedule a follow-up appointment at your first visit? If so, then you'd want to keep strictly to the prescription until then, for sure.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Wow you're very lucky with your water situation lol, it's a bit of a different story where i live.
    They did not schedule a follow-up appt, though I may call them again just to ask for more advice. I hate having to put him through the force feeding every other night ): i just know he's miserable.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Yeah I think you should definitely check-in with the Vet since it's their prescription you're following. I'm surprised they didn't suggest a follow-up appointment for you. Do they have Amphibians and/or Reptiles as a part of their practice or did they just see Terry as a one-off kind of thing?

    Yes I see the conditions in my "compound" as I call it as atypically ideal in almost every respect and the water here is probably the single most significant blessing of all.
    You should check out my photo albums here and see this playlist on my youtube channel to get an idea of my work propagating Hyla versicolor and Hyla chrysoscelis Frogs and Anaxyrus Toads: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...8f46gZXD7Bq3FD I encourage anyone with any way of doing the same kind of Frog, Toad, and other amphibian propagation on their property to do the same.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    They said they don't get a lot of reptiles in their office. But we did see a certified Exotic vet, I found her on https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661
    Very interesting, I will definitely take a look at your work!!

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Oh good that's the directory site I recommend to people to find a Vet for their Rep's and Amp's.
    So back to what I said, I'd say just follow their prescription and be patient. I think you said they told you it could take a while.
    Also my experience with domesticated Frogs, Toads, Turtles, Tortoises, Newts, and an Alligator made me realize that they're more responsive to the vibe and care you give them than most people would even imagine. Terry senses your compassion and that'll mitigate the necessarily firm handling it takes to feed him. These little critters do have feelings and they do sense human intent and love. I know my frogs, all of which came into their lives with disabilities that would have made them snacks for predators within the first few hours or days at the longest, each have their own personalities and respond to me in different ways. Having them in a domestic setting and interacting with them upgrades them in ways just as it dulls their instincts in other ways. Hang-in there for Terry.

    The other thing I'm wondering is if the Vet can be certain his trouble is a blockage, is there a way to enter the cloaca with something like a tweezer/speculum and pull the blockage out? I'd ask the Vet that question. If they can sedate the patient the cloaca would be more relaxed and that would make that kind of procedure easier. Just wondering. If they can do that it would be a surgery without any cutting or stitching.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Honestly thank you for telling me that they can sense human intent. I wasn't sure to what extent they could process emotions, i mean i know they pee when i pick them up so i always feel like i'm bothering them, but i would love to think that Terry senses my intent and knows i wouldn't hurt him intentionally.
    The vet wasn't really *certain* about a blockage, it just seemed like her best guess i suppose. Going in and pulling it out would be the next thing i bring up to the vet if nothing else happens at this point, but i do have an update/development..

    Last night when I went to give Terry his bath, the sides of his belly were very noticeably sucked in, and there was skin hanging around his mouth. I figured he was shedding, i just picked him up real quick to peek and make sure everything looked ok, then i quickly put him back in his hiding spot and left him alone for the night, no bath. It's been almost 24 hours, and I just checked on him again and i couldn't see anymore visible skin but he was extremely round. I think i'm going to skip bath today again, but just mist him periodically, and skip feeding tonight also. It's been 19 days since i witnessed his last shedding, (which was when this whole ordeal started). I'm not sure if hes actually just finishing that last shed, (since there has still been skin stuck to his belly this whole time) or if this is a different one, or what is going on with that. So that's why i feel like i should leave him alone for maybe 2 more days(?) and see what happens.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    I'm not trying to sound negative but frogs and toads do not have the same emotions as what people do. They do not share compassion. If you keep too many toads in one setup they will try to starve each other just so that way they get more food. They are much smarter and are actually more strategist than what people believe but I do not believe they show compassion. regardless on if you have a wounded animal or a healthy animal their natural instinct is to try to get away and that is still something they are going to do regardless on how long you keep the animal. it's important to understand the slower and the more gentle you go with the frog or toad the better the experience and the more comfortable they feel so they're not as willing to try to escape and assume you are a predator. there is no scientific proof that shows these animals can show human emotions. The one thing that I am arguing that these animals possess that many people do not believe specifically for the North American tree frogs and toads is that they can become territorial in captivity and can establish a hierarchy. This is not something that is scientifically proven because some people do not believe this while others strongly believe this. I know from experience where I stand and someday I hope to write something about this becoming a researcher. But I just wanted to make it clear the only way they would know the intent is if you're going slow and you are not seeming as a threat to them.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    One way you'll know they're at ease with you will be when you can handle them without them ever doing anything defensive in response, from discharges to inflation and curling to just scrambling to get away. Toads are a little harder to domesticate to that degree than Gray Tree Frogs are but you shouldn't hesitate to try. It's best not to take them up when they're sleeping or hiding but if you see them out and exploring their tank you can take that opportunity to further acquaint them with you. My Tree Frogs let me know they want to have outside time by jumping onto the screen door of their tank and crawling over to the part nearest to me. During the winter they're far less active and eat much less and sleep much more but periodically they will be interested in some socializing. They get agitated climbing on the screen and are all charcoal colored, then get very calm and turn very light gray once they're on my hand. In the winter months they'll just go to sleep on me but in the warm seasons they'll climb all over me.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Check for any signs of elimination, and maybe try to feed him live food. If he's shed, and has been able to pass any blockage if that's what it was, then he'll get some appetite back for live food. But keep in mind that he's programmed to hibernate now so his apetite won't be anywhere near what it will be in other seasons.
    It sounds like he's making progress.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Wardog View Post
    I'm not trying to sound negative but frogs and toads do not have the same emotions as what people do. They do not share compassion. If you keep too many toads in one setup they will try to starve each other just so that way they get more food. They are much smarter and are actually more strategist than what people believe but I do not believe they show compassion. regardless on if you have a wounded animal or a healthy animal their natural instinct is to try to get away and that is still something they are going to do regardless on how long you keep the animal. it's important to understand the slower and the more gentle you go with the frog or toad the better the experience and the more comfortable they feel so they're not as willing to try to escape and assume you are a predator. there is no scientific proof that shows these animals can show human emotions. The one thing that I am arguing that these animals possess that many people do not believe specifically for the North American tree frogs and toads is that they can become territorial in captivity and can establish a hierarchy. This is not something that is scientifically proven because some people do not believe this while others strongly believe this. I know from experience where I stand and someday I hope to write something about this becoming a researcher. But I just wanted to make it clear the only way they would know the intent is if you're going slow and you are not seeming as a threat to them.

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    First thing here is that at no point did I or anyone say that frogs and toads "have the same emotions as what people do" as you put it. No where did anyone state as you also put it that they "share compassion". You managed to take all of what I and then apr0705 said and come up with your own twisted misinterpretation of it to mean something completely other than what was stated. Perhaps you should try reading those posts again. You seem to insist upon disagreeing with almost everything I post which is begining to get old and looks a little trollish.

    Now, with regard to how these or any animals behave in captivity as opposed to in the wild, it's a fact that they don't behave the same in both circumstances.
    Of course, if you put too many of any living thing into a confined space they'll exhibit a wide range of aberrant behaviors such as you describe and more.

    Many animals, if bred in or taken into captivity when newly brought into the world will depart from the norm of their specie's observed behavior with daily human interaction, i.e. a degree of domestication.

    As for the Anaxyrus family of Toads and the Gray/Cope's Gray tree frogs native to the region in which I am, I have a unique place from which to observe their behavior as they live on and around the house, the trees and shrubs on the grounds, and from there out to the vast acreages of forests and fields surrounding it. My pool cover measures 20x40 feet and is a central spawning pond for both Tree Frogs and Toads as well as other species of amphibians which I've noted in other threads, all of which come from as far away as a quarter mile from 3 cardinal points to spawn in it. This gives me the absolutely perfect, immediately up-close observation post from which to gather data every year.

    In addition to my constant observation of both the Tree Frogs and the Toads outside the house, I have four Grays, each with their own personality who respond to me each as individuals in individual ways, including but not limited to, with their color changes. They will all climb onto my hand without prodding, never trying to flee. One of them whenever taken from the tank climbs onto my hand, then crawls by whatever route he can to the top of my head where he has sat for as long as 4 hours as I go about my business around the house, watch a movie, get online, make dinner, eat, etc. and he will only come down when I remove him when I have to return him to his tank. The other three exhibit the same comfort with human contact. None of them exhibit any defensive responses toward me at any time. Once in a while they'll defecate on me but that's not a defensive threat response, in fact they have to be completely comfortable to relax and do that when being handled by a huge creature they would see only as a potential predator or a general threat if they were not domesticated. They all will sleep in my hand or on my shoulder, on my arm, torso, leg, whatever, and turn their most relaxed gray shade the entire time they're being handled.

    They also love to play, climbing on my hands and arms and jumping from one part of me to another, all while being completely at ease and enthusiastic, never displaying their threat colors of the darker shades of their spectrum. Then after burning off some energy, they'll fall asleep on me. But one can only know these kind of intimate aspects of their potential, latent nature by being close to them on the level I have been and am currently and by putting the time in to domesticate them from their first day as a froglet.

    Maybe you shouldn't keep these animals as captives if you don't feel you're able to connect with them.
    By keeping them in small boxes and telling yourself you're doing something akin to scientific observation, you fail to understand that you won't see them as they would be in the wild. Barring having an ideal circumstance as I do, only by immersing yourself into the wild where they live and becoming a part of the immediate environment they're at home within will you ever gain any real understanding and appreciation of their nature and complexity. This is true for observation of any animal. Even if you should take that step, your very presence will alter their behavior to the degree that it may take a generation or two before you're taken for granted by the community you're surrounded by and no longer having much effect on their behavior just by the fact of your being there, but that's not a committment most can make.

    I've had the advantage of having both Anaxyrus Toads and both Hyla Tree Frogs draw close to me in large numbers by the fact of my pool cover pond of snowmelt and rain in the spring, coupled with my immediate proximity to their purely wild habitat, so I'm able to observe them both in their wild, individual (Toads) and communal (Tree Frogs) context directly outside of my house and in the case of the Tree Frogs, a domesticated condition within my house as well.

    Finally, when I say "
    These little critters do have feelings and they do sense human intent and love." , this doesn't mean they have human emotions as you misunderstand it to mean.

    Gray Tree Frogs, when domesticated, change color in response to a variety of conditions and not merely in response to the colors of their surroundings as some observers like to assert. They change colors according to their mood as readilly as they do to camouflage themselves as those in the wild do.


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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by KP View Post
    First thing here is that at no point did I or anyone say that frogs and toads "have the same emotions as what people do" as you put it. No where did anyone state as you also put it that they "share compassion". You managed to take all of what I and then apr0705 said and come up with your own twisted misinterpretation of it to mean something completely other than what was stated. Perhaps you should try reading those posts again. You seem to insist upon disagreeing with almost everything I post which is begining to get old and looks a little trollish.

    Now, with regard to how these or any animals behave in captivity as opposed to in the wild, it's a fact that they don't behave the same in both circumstances.
    Of course, if you put too many of any living thing into a confined space they'll exhibit a wide range of aberrant behaviors such as you describe and more.

    Many animals, if bred in or taken into captivity when newly brought into the world will depart from the norm of their specie's observed behavior with daily human interaction, i.e. a degree of domestication.

    As for the Anaxyrus family of Toads and the Gray/Cope's Gray tree frogs native to the region in which I am, I have a unique place from which to observe their behavior as they live on and around the house, the trees and shrubs on the grounds, and from there out to the vast acreages of forests and fields surrounding it. My pool cover measures 20x40 feet and is a central spawning pond for both Tree Frogs and Toads as well as other species of amphibians which I've noted in other threads, all of which come from as far away as a quarter mile from 3 cardinal points to spawn in it. This gives me the absolutely perfect, immediately up-close observation post from which to gather data every year.

    In addition to my constant observation of both the Tree Frogs and the Toads outside the house, I have four Grays, each with their own personality who respond to me each as individuals in individual ways, including but not limited to, with their color changes. They will all climb onto my hand without prodding, never trying to flee. One of them whenever taken from the tank climbs onto my hand, then crawls by whatever route he can to the top of my head where he has sat for as long as 4 hours as I go about my business around the house, watch a movie, get online, make dinner, eat, etc. and he will only come down when I remove him when I have to return him to his tank. The other three exhibit the same comfort with human contact. None of them exhibit any defensive responses toward me at any time. Once in a while they'll defecate on me but that's not a defensive threat response, in fact they have to be completely comfortable to relax and do that when being handled by a huge creature they would see only as a potential predator or a general threat if they were not domesticated. They all will sleep in my hand or on my shoulder, on my arm, torso, leg, whatever, and turn their most relaxed gray shade the entire time they're being handled.

    They also love to play, climbing on my hands and arms and jumping from one part of me to another, all while being completely at ease and enthusiastic, never displaying their threat colors of the darker shades of their spectrum. Then after burning off some energy, they'll fall asleep on me. But one can only know these kind of intimate aspects of their potential, latent nature by being close to them on the level I have been and am currently and by putting the time in to domesticate them from their first day as a froglet.

    Maybe you shouldn't keep these animals as captives if you don't feel you're able to connect with them.
    By keeping them in small boxes and telling yourself you're doing something akin to scientific observation, you fail to understand that you won't see them as they would be in the wild. Barring having an ideal circumstance as I do, only by immersing yourself into the wild where they live and becoming a part of the immediate environment they're at home within will you ever gain any real understanding and appreciation of their nature and complexity. This is true for observation of any animal. Even if you should take that step, your very presence will alter their behavior to the degree that it may take a generation or two before you're taken for granted by the community you're surrounded by and no longer having much effect on their behavior just by the fact of your being there, but that's not a committment most can make.

    I've had the advantage of having both Anaxyrus Toads and both Hyla Tree Frogs draw close to me in large numbers by the fact of my pool cover pond of snowmelt and rain in the spring, coupled with my immediate proximity to their purely wild habitat, so I'm able to observe them both in their wild, individual (Toads) and communal (Tree Frogs) context directly outside of my house and in the case of the Tree Frogs, a domesticated condition within my house as well.

    Finally, when I say "
    These little critters do have feelings and they do sense human intent and love." , this doesn't mean they have human emotions as you misunderstand it to mean.

    Gray Tree Frogs, when domesticated, change color in response to a variety of conditions and not merely in response to the colors of their surroundings as some observers like to assert. They change colors according to their mood as readilly as they do to camouflage themselves as those in the wild do.

    I appreciate your responses but I also feel obligated to give responses as I always have for many years. You give some good thought in your posts but I'm sure anyone would have read what you wrote and assumed you really meant they have feelings like people.

    I am not trolling you I am subscribed to these two areas as I'm sure you are so I comment on posts that I feel need my help. It has nothing to do with you. Unless Bill, Xavier or Dan post I don't assume a post is covered so I attempt to help the best that I can.

    As for your comments about my small boxes I actually have not known of anyone even a zoo to keep toads in a 6 foot long enclosure so I don't have to really entertain that statement. I am going to have 3 tanks over 100 gallons by the end of the year and that's 3/4 of my enclosures that size. All my animals are given the biggest enclosures I feel possible to have.

    I do not just keep these animals in captivity. I have been exploring many parts of the state and observing toads and pond frogs especially as to their behavior which is of greater distance then the compound you mention. From the old abandoned turnpike up to Potter County to Fayette County all around the western and central part of the state I observe these animals. I have seen suburban, forested and in some small cases urban habitats of these animals and as I observe the animals in these habitats I learn more and more about them. I also am beginning work with other researchers this spring and am attempting to reach out to the state fish and boat commission. So I have a lot of great resources to help me and I'm not perfect and I am wrong sometimes but I'm passionate about helping people care for their animals and I want to do the best that I can. It's not to offend you but if I can help educate someone or teach or show someone something about these animals then I will attempt to do so.

    I apologise to the OP and do not wish to go down a rabbit trail from your post. If you do wish to have my help tag me in your post so I can see.

    Thank you.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    I live with them 24/7. You can't get a better opportunity to observe them and collect data no matter how much you travel around the state.
    And an enclosure no matter how large will not be in any measure equal to observation of wild animals by immersion in their habitat.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by KP View Post
    I live with them 24/7. You can't get a better opportunity to observe them and collect data no matter how much you travel around the state.
    And an enclosure no matter how large will not be in any measure equal to observation of wild animals by immersion in their habitat.
    I live with them too, but what you seem to be missing is that observations from different populations is a more detailed understanding of a species. It's good to be around them in a forest but to see them in different environments is even better for observation.

    I don't know what you are trying to say with your second part of your response? You own frogs too and your frogs are probably not kept in larger setups. You are keeping deformed frogs and I'm keeping rescued frogs and toads in massive enclosures with advanced climate control and attempting to breed them to replenish their numbers from the area they came from. Of course I can observe them and get good information. I will have wild and captive information which is what I want anyways. That said they are two different categories and I'm not comparing wild to captive amphibians. I will have two types of research.

    If you have a disagreement with me pm me I don't want to continue to get further away from the OP original post.

    Sorry again to you btw!

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    You said: "If you have a disagreement with me pm me I don't want to continue to get further away from the OP original post."

    Then stop trolling my posts.

    My information and advice to apr0705 was completely legitimate and it was you who trolled me.
    What you're doing here is the epitome of trolling and it derails the thread.
    This happens all the time on websites like this and you've been trolling my posts since I began posting here on Frog Forum.

    I have no interest in pm-ing with you about anything. You just need to stop trolling me and anyone else you're trolling.

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by KP View Post
    You said: "If you have a disagreement with me pm me I don't want to continue to get further away from the OP original post."

    Then stop trolling my posts.

    My information and advice to apr0705 was completely legitimate and it was you who trolled me.
    What you're doing here is the epitome of trolling and it derails the thread.
    This happens all the time on websites like this and you've been trolling my posts since I began posting here on Frog Forum.

    I have no interest in pm-ing with you about anything. You just need to stop trolling me and anyone else you're trolling.
    Listen if there is a post that I feel the need to respond to then I am going to do so. If I don't believe the best advice is given then I'm going to give a response. It doesn't matter who comments on the thread. You shouldn't take this so personal I'm not interested in trolling you I'm just trying to help someone out. I have done this for 5 years on the site now. I've gotten into disagreements with many people but I've also helped a lot of people so it just is what it is. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm trolling you but if you have a problem then either pm me and we can try to work it out or talk to an admin.

    Two times now I've been trying to either make peace or end the conversation and idk why we can't just move past this thread. It's not helping anyone who reads this anymore. I'll try to unfollow the post of that makes you feel better. Can we just please be done and move on from this?

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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Wardog View Post
    Listen if there is a post that I feel the need to respond to then I am going to do so. If I don't believe the best advice is given then I'm going to give a response. It doesn't matter who comments on the thread. You shouldn't take this so personal I'm not interested in trolling you I'm just trying to help someone out. I have done this for 5 years on the site now. I've gotten into disagreements with many people but I've also helped a lot of people so it just is what it is. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm trolling you but if you have a problem then either pm me and we can try to work it out or talk to an admin.

    Two times now I've been trying to either make peace or end the conversation and idk why we can't just move past this thread. It's not helping anyone who reads this anymore. I'll try to unfollow the post of that makes you feel better. Can we just please be done and move on from this?

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    You're still doing it.
    You start the trolling and then act like you just want the person you troll to stop, just to "be done and move along".
    You interject by trying to tear down what someone else says with your opinion and then act all the victim when you're called out for trolling.
    You need to knock it off. It's not your call to end any conversation, particularly if you weren't a part of it in the first place, you just decided to troll the thread and now you want it to end because you can't troll it without being called out for it. That is the very definition of "Trolling".

    That you've "done this for 5 years on this site now" and that you've "gotten into disagreements with many people" as you say is exactly your problem.

    If you feel a burning need to oppose what someone else says, what you need to do is leave your ego aside and simply state your position directly to the questioner and be detatched from needing to look like the smartest person in the room.
    This will allow the questioner to read and sift through all the information and opinions given to them by all of the people who respond and not to have to choose between the personalities of the people offering their advice and opinions.

    The bottom line for you is that you need to stop your trolling behavior and stop complaining that it's you whose been attacked or victimized whenever you're called on it after you do it.

  20. #39
    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    Quote Originally Posted by KP View Post
    You're still doing it.
    You start the trolling and then act like you just want the person you troll to stop, just to "be done and move along".
    You interject by trying to tear down what someone else says with your opinion and then act all the victim when you're called out for trolling.
    You need to knock it off. It's not your call to end any conversation, particularly if you weren't a part of it in the first place, you just decided to troll the thread and now you want it to end because you can't troll it without being called out for it. That is the very definition of "Trolling".

    That you've "done this for 5 years on this site now" and that you've "gotten into disagreements with many people" as you say is exactly your problem.

    If you feel a burning need to oppose what someone else says, what you need to do is leave your ego aside and simply state your position directly to the questioner and be detatched from needing to look like the smartest person in the room.
    This will allow the questioner to read and sift through all the information and opinions given to them by all of the people who respond and not to have to choose between the personalities of the people offering their advice and opinions.

    The bottom line for you is that you need to stop your trolling behavior and stop complaining that it's you whose been attacked or victimized whenever you're called on it after you do it.
    At some point you have to realize that I've been trying to move on from the discussion with you because it's not helping anyone. I don't understand why you continue to feel the need to tell me that I'm a troll whenever I already explained to you that I am subscribed to these posts for toads and tree frogs and I am going to respond if I feel it is necessary. It has nothing to do with being the smartest person it's just about making sure the point is explained and followed up.

    You have to understand you are on a public forum and you can't threaten someone to stop posting on a public forum. It's disappointing that you continue to say that I troll you and if that's how you feel I'm sorry you feel that way but if someone posts on something and if I feel the need to respond then I'm going to respond. Even if you respond I'm still going to respond if I believe I can give good advice to someone.

    You need to understand you can't call dibs on a post and nobody else is allowed to post because of you. If you can't explain your point please don't get mad if someone asks you to. If your going to put a post out there it's fair game to challenge it. That's how people grow.

    If you feel the need to keep going just make another post or something so we can just keep going if you want but this doesn't need to be on this person's post. I don't understand why you need to get the last word and feel so personally attacked but that's fine we can keep this going on if it's something you need to keep going back to.

    Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk

  21. #40
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    Default Re: American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

    You just can't stop your trolling. SMH

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