New Colorado River Toads....(20!!!)

[Jeff Kennedy]

Tadpole. Try to read it all again and maybe it will sink in. I bought what I thought was CAPTIVE BRED specimens. I had already owned several CAPTIVE BRED specimens and wanted more because I LIKE THE SPECIES. It was after receiving them that I was suspicious that they were NOT CAPTIVE BRED and delved further into the matter. obviously if I would have known this I would not have purchased because it has been constant work and $$$ to get them back to health. I can see though that you seem to be someone that just wants to argue with everyone so I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I don't need to. I have done everything on my end that I need to. I have rehabilitated many of these toads and have them healthy and thriving again. I am proud of that. Even though I was mislead and stand to lose a lot of money, I still reported it to authorities even though their really is no jurisdiction over any of it because it is all hearsay. I have no ideal where the toads I purchased originated from as once again I was under the impression that they were CAPTIVE BRED but I've reported it to several authorities and we are all trying to put our heads together on the matter. It seems to me though with the lack of response, that the authorities must have better things to do then to worry about a handful of toads that may or may not have originated from their state. But again Tadpole, you can believe what you want as you are just wanting to argue with someone. Anybody that wants proof to this, just do a search of the posts in which Tadpole has enlightened us with since joining the forum. He sure is spreading a lot of cheer!!!

[tadpole]

It is totally illegal to collect them in New Mexico, and it is only legal to collect a handful in Arizona under a state fishing license and under no circumstances can they be brought out of the state - that is illegal. Not only is that a violation of the state laws of Arizona and New Mexico, but it is a federal offense under the Lacey Act. USFW would love his contact information.(john clare/admin)

simple question jeff, who's the vendor?

[Jeff Kennedy]

Simple Answer: Eric Lago MS Reptilian Hobbyists - Home
When I purchased, I responded to an ad on Kingsnake. At that time (as there is right now), there were several other people on Kingsnake offering River Toads for sale. I was in the market for some, but went with Eric because he claimed to have around 100 that he raised from eggs. We went on to exchange emails about the species. He knew quite a bit about them, their husbandry, breeding, etc. and had been working with the species for several years which is why I went with him. It was sometime after I purchased that he stopped listing on Kingsnake, I am assuming because he now has his website up and running and can sell them through there. To this day he still maintains that the toads I purchased came from a group of eggs that he raised and that he does have permission from AZ to collect and that he checks with them every year before he goes out and does so.

[tadpole]

thank you for a civil answer, jeff. i think this thread has taught all of us, and that's a positive.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Not that it is anyones business but I was able to find this and I wanted to post it. It is the old email that I sent to Eric the day after receiving my sick, uncared for toads. It really isn't anyones business what was exchanged amongst us but I am fed the f@^& up with kamikaze posters jumping on this thread and trying to call me out like I am some kind of crook or a creep that doesn't care about these toads. I have busted my *** everyday to get these guys back to health and have never once asked for anything from anyone. When Ella and I post about them on this board, it is because we are happy with what we have done and want to share our experience working with the toads to the rest of you. My blood is completely boiling as I KNOW what my intentions were when purchasing them and I KNOW the amount of work that I put in daily just to care for these guys. I do it becuase I WANT TO. the bring me happiness. I am fed up to my gills with people just dropping in this forum whom don't know what they are talking about, stir up a bunch of sh*%, then just disappear after they question my character and integrity. Anyways, on to the email that I had sent Eric.....

From: Jeff Kennedy <***************@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Message about: JUMBO Sonoran Desert Toad PAIRS (B. alvarius)
To: "Eric Lago" <msreptilianhobbyists@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 12:57 AM

Hi Eric,

I want to be as tactful as I can about this issue. I want to first begin by saying that throughout all of our correspondence, I was impressed with your knowledge pertaining to husbandry and your willingness to bargain with me in regards to a deal that would work out for the both of us. I was under the impression that you had been captively breeding the Colorado River Toads as you had so many, but now I am not so sure. One of the first concerns that I had was that I had asked you several times to provide me with your information in regards to your work with the species. This never got answered but I wasn't too concerned as I know that you had vehicle related issues going on this week as well. The other issue that I look back on now is how several times I referenced you hooking me up with some "fattys" or "fat ones" pertaining to the toad's size however you never commented on that. Again, I wasn't too concerned as you seemed like a very stand up guy and one that knew about husbandry techniques for the species. Now I want to talk about yesterday and the shipment that I received. When I opened the package and saw the majority of the animals that was sent, I was shocked. The first issue for me was the size difference. We had spoke of 3-4" sub adults which is what I prepped for when accommodating my area with tanks for them but this really wasn't an issue. I can get more tanks and who is going to complain about getting larger, more desirable toads? What I couldn't believe, was how gravely underweight 85% of the order was. Most of these guys are just walking skeletons with skin from there stomachs dragging the ground and there backbone exposed, looking like its about to poke through the skin. Over 50% had open sores and or redness throughout there belly's and hands. Two of them, had birth defects. One doesn't have an eye and the other is missing a complete foot that never formed. The group as a whole is going to take an extreme amount of TLC for me to be able to nurse them back to health if that is even possible on some. Immediately, I fed out (10) dozen large crickets to the toads. They were completely starved. I fear that I stand to lose at least 30-40% of my order from illnesses that were present upon me receiving them. The other two with the birth defects, I would just as soon not even had. If I would have known these two were included, I would have only bought (18). Another note that has some concern for me is that I have noticed all that have defecated thus far, have had runny stools. This is a sign of parasites which shouldn't be present in captive born specimens. I will leave the ball in your court now as to what you feel like you should do to make this right. You know what you sent me and you know that it really wasn't fair to me. I don't know that since we negotiated the price if you sent me the bottom of the barrel toads and saved your better ones for the people whom wanted to pay full price but I am not happy about this transaction. Please provide insight on all the topics that I have mentioned throughout this email and what you think a good solution is for the both of us. I look forward to your reply.

Jeff Kennedy

[tadpole]

who's disappeared jeff? the only issue on the table is your now obvious contribution to the exploitation of live animals mainly used for illegal drugs. because you are an "outraged good guy herp dealer" does not change this fact.

i really wish you hadn't posted that last description, we already knew what type of person this vendor is just from what he does for a living.this guy really needs some heat put under his butt. raiding wildlife habitat to accumulate more animals than could be properly cared for is the horror story that consistently makes the news, and gives all pet dealers a black eye.

what's to stop this guy from doing this over and over? how many animals have already withered away because of him? and the longer he gets away with it, the more profit he makes, the longer he will continue to operate in this fashion. as a frog owner myself, i have to say this situation disgusts me a lot more than all of your misdirected "outrage". so stop feeling sorry for yourself and as you like to say, look at the bigger picture.

[Malachi]

This thread should be deleted or locked. There is nothing left here but tidbits for trolls to chew on. Further posting will not contribute anything to this community.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I agree. I'm done contributing to it. The majority knows and understands the situation. Some people just like to argue for arguing sake. There is nothing that can be said that Tadpole isn't going to twist into something else to try and make himself sound more educated and right. I have more important things to do with my day. Thanks again to all that PM'd me showing their support and sharing with me the frustration of one bad apple that wants to ruin the experience for everyone. I'm done with this thread so take your shots Tadpole. I'm serving you up a nice fat pitch right down the middle that you can swing away at!!! Enjoy arguing with yourself!!

[Kevin1]

After reading this thread, and since I'm currently in training to be a Department of Fish and Game Warden I feel I should mention a thing or two.
The best way to deal with the illegal poaching of our native wildlife is what I believe Seth mentioned. Which is to make them a renewable resource like many fish and game departments have done with fish for the fishing hobby, though what they've done with that still isn't entirely flawless, it does however ensure the survival of the said species. Until then the best way to stop it is to stop the demand by not purchasing these poached animals. Jeff i know you said you were under the impression that they were C.B.(captive bred) which is understandable.
Though that leads me to another point I wanted to bring up. There's a big difference between captive bred and captive born. Being captive born is just as bad as wild caught, maybe even more so. According to most DFG departments the lawful thing to do would be to turn the poached animals in. Your doing the right thing Jeff by calling them. I thank and appreciate you for doing so.

[Kurt]

the vendor jeff bought these from could give a flying @#@* about who he sells to. he's out nightly corralling up more of these animals to supply the drug trade. by buying the quantity jeff did does nothing but encourage this vendor to go grab more, and apparently subject them to sordid conditions resulting in the poor condition described.

jeff is trying to take the high road by saying he's rescued these animals from a horrible withering death. BS. he's as much of a contributor to the species collection pressure as the burn outs you just mentioned. the only way to stop this unsavory business is if the demand for the animals stops, period.

Unfortunately, I doubt the demand will dissapear. Also, I did say self-respecting vendors, obviously Jeff was dealing with a guy who was out to make a quick buck, not some onewho makes a living from vending frogs, someone who has a reputation to worry about.

[Eel Noob]

I do believe sometime threads should be closed when there's no information being shared but people are just bickering back and forth or trolls just trolling.

[Rabbit87]

My boyfriend and I have 5 Colorodo River Toads that we got from Jeff a few months ago. They arrived in good health. They just needed some water and food, which was expected. They adapted to their new environment well and seemed very happy. Since then, we have done many changes. Our toads seem happier then ever. When we first got them we had thought about them possibly not being CB, but that did not stop us from keeping them or loving them. If we had not adopted them, someone somewhere would have and who knows if they would treat them as well as we do. We do not have any bad feelings about keeping our toads. We have them in a 75 gallon tank with a large water dish that they all fit into comfortably and a big half log for them to burrow under. They are all very healthy and getting big!

Ella- I was just wondering what substrate you are using for your toads? Once they got a little bigger, close to full grown did they start to eat less? Also, do your toads jump around the tank at their reflection in the glass or at the lid? Ours do. lol Its really funny and cute Well, hope your toads are doing great! Can't wait for your reply! Take care.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Hi Misty,

Thanks so much for the update and even more for the pics!!! When you sent the pics last night, Ella and I flipped through them a couple of times and just smiled. It makes us very happy to know that they are receiving the same TLC that they were receiving with us. The whole River Toad debacle has been an unfortunate chain of events for us, personally and financially. The silver lining in it is people like yourself whom have stepped up for the shear love of the species and given them a loving home. We are happy to say that the majority of the group have been adopted out to loving enthusiasts such as yourself whom will continue to offer the same care in which we were offering. As far as the eating habits, yes it will slow as they age but these guys always seem to be eager eaters. It is when they are full grown and less active that they will pack on those extra pounds and really start to become nice display pieces (in my opinion). As far as their zany behavior? Yes, that is just them being them. When it is feeding time, Ella and I will actually laugh out loud at the way in which they will smack each other in the face with their tongues if the other toad beats them to the cricket or roach. Keep up the good work and again, Thanks for loving them!

[Rabbit87]

Hey guys! You are more then welcome! We really love these guys and want to give them the best home we can provide Erik is already planning to build them a bigger home out of plexi glass and possibly add a water side with a water filtration system and everything. We are still doing our research to see if the ideas we have will work, but we are pretty sure it will! We have hundreds of photos lol so we will definitely be posting more soon! They are getting soo big and fat, it's the cutest thing! We are glad that things are settling and they're all going to good homes Sure we will be in touch again in the future. Take care guys & Thanks again!!

-Misty & Erik

[Digital]

I just want to throw my 2 cents in, I don't mean to offend anyone, with this. But honestly, if you get the little red flags. Don't you think you should hold off on buying from that seller. I'm new to the frog/toad world. But I been breeding other animals for quite a while now. Wouldn't it be easier to see if anyone has bought from the person your plaining to order from. Like see what other people experience was with him. I understand that no one wants to pay lot's of $$$ to get sick animals. So why not do some research ahead of time and then order. I'm not trying to offended anyone here and I understand some people have to learn from their mistakes, but to me when it involves lots of money to buy them and then have to spend more getting back to health. I would rethink things and really be on the look out for the little red flags when ordering from someone.