Edulis?

[onedge30]

What do you all think?

http://www.hlasek.com/pyxicephalus_a...us_db6917.html

[John]

In my opinion it is not Pyxicephalus adspersus but it's also not P. edulis - the mode of egg laying is that employed by P. adspersus (laying above the water) but not by P. edulis (laying under the water), as indicated by Passmore and Caruthers.

[onedge30]

So what are you saying, John? Are you dancing around the issue? lol

Crazy what you find! How about 2 more? This is like find Waldo. But we are looking for traits.

He you go.....



and..... This one I just got in an email and they have them in stock. I am asking what they call it.

[onedge30]

Alright, second picture above is labeled 'edulis' at Swanees Exotics. Nate, the owner, sent the picture.

He says that he has 'many'. They are $15 each. Fedex is around $35.

http://www.swaneesexotics.com/

He said I could share this pricing with all.

[John]

Those photos in your second post look like edulis to me. That is not the frog in the link you posted.

[onedge30]

Right John. Sorry, I didn't say that, but all three are from different sources.

So are most edulis much darker?

In your book, John, is there a description for obbianus?

[tgampper]

The pictures are edulis. The key indicators for me are the white spot (lighter coloration) in the tympanum and that the distance between the eye and the tympanum is about the same as the diameter of the eye. Coloration is not a good indicator of species, focus on the white spot in tympanum and the distance between the eye and tympanum.

Alan Channing (2001) mentions that the call of edulis sounds like the barking of a small dog, quite different than the "whoop" call of adspersus.

[Kevin1]

Perhaps a natural inter-grade between the two.

[tgampper]

Perhaps a natural inter-grade between the two.

It would be interesting to know if pyxie hybrids are becoming popular. I know the there are quite a few hybrids among horned frogs. Some pyxies that I seen have traits of both adspersus and edulis.

[John]

Given that Pyxicephalus adspersus and P. edulis lay eggs in markedly different fashions, I think hybridization is at least very difficult, if not impossible.

Terry, please inform my ignorance - the frog on the left of the original comparison picture is P. edulis? Then what is the frog in the photos posted by Jeff?

[Kevin1]

I couldn't help but wonder. The frogs in that video are very odd especially how dark the female is.

That video has had me confused since I first seen it years ago..

If not Obbianus, and hybridization is out of the question..than a new species? Or perhaps an Edulis subspecies?

[willtilian]

i would think a adpersus subspecie due to its size or the bridge between the two species like lucy between humans and apes

[SethD]

Given that Pyxicephalus adspersus and P. edulis lay eggs in markedly different fashions, I think hybridization is at least very difficult, if not impossible.

I wouldn't completely rule it out though, sometimes frogs that that you wouldn't suspect can still successfully hybridize and in some cases those hybrids are even fertile. For example in toads there has been at least one genetically documented case of a wild natural hybrid between a woodhouse toad and a Colorado river toad, and also hybrids between wooodhouse toads and red spotted toads(which have somewhat different egg laying modes since red spotteds lay eggs individually and woodhouse lay in strings). Of course in those cases the occasional hybrids either are not fertile or don't do as well as the parent species or else gene flow would have created a new "species" a long time ago.

It wouldn't shock me though if wild male edulis were able to breed with female adspersus in areas where adspersus was less common some time in the past and created a "species" with some characteristics of both.

[onedge30]

Very interesting, Seth. And in reading a lot of data, it looks like adspersus and edulis have different breeding seasons. So a few hung over from adspersus and got caught by a few eager beavers from edulis.

OK, now here is the big one. If everyone watching this post 'had to' narrow all the photos you have seen of Pyxicephalus, down to 'the' three species, what pictures would you pic? Out of everything you can humanly find.

[Kevin1]

I wouldn't completely rule it out though, sometimes frogs that that you wouldn't suspect can still successfully hybridize and in some cases those hybrids are even fertile. For example in toads there has been at least one genetically documented case of a wild natural hybrid between a woodhouse toad and a Colorado river toad, and also hybrids between wooodhouse toads and red spotted toads(which have somewhat different egg laying modes since red spotteds lay eggs individually and woodhouse lay in strings). Of course in those cases the occasional hybrids either are not fertile or don't do as well as the parent species or else gene flow would have created a new "species" a long time ago.

It wouldn't shock me though if wild male edulis were able to breed with female adspersus in areas where adspersus was less common some time in the past and created a "species" with some characteristics of both.

Thank you Seth.
I think I'll stick with my first idea of it being some kind of inter-grade.

[Kevin1]

Very interesting, Seth. And in reading a lot of data, it looks like adspersus and edulis have different breeding seasons. So a few hung over from adspersus and got caught by a few eager beavers from edulis.

OK, now here is the big one. If everyone watching this post 'had to' narrow all the photos you have seen of Pyxicephalus, down to 'the' three species, what pictures would you pic? Out of everything you can humanly find.

That sounds like a quite a task. lol

[onedge30]

I know it sound daunting, but that is what we kinda are looking for.

Everything else, would be based off the 3 original species.

[tgampper]

Hi Folks:

I appreciate your help in putting together the guide. I would be interested in any photos or other information you have that will help us identify pyxies. Make sure you note the source for credit. PM me and I will give you my regular email address.

Mark-Oliver Roedel mentions that the dorsum (back) of P. edulis is more or less uniform yellow-green or olive-drab. Males are more greenish, while females are more olive brown. Females are most likely have a pale vertebral stripe and light lines on the ridges and warts.

The lower lip, fingertips and venter (belly) are uniform cream color. Males have dark yellow throats. On some individuals, the venter is completely yellow. The webs are darkly pigmented.

Juveniles have a bright, light green vertebral stripe, golden-brown speckles and black markings on dark green skin. These dark markings appear on lips and extremities.

Here is Roedel differs from Channing and Carruthers, Roedel says there is a dark patch present in the center of the tympanum. All the other sources I read say a light or white spot.

Roedel's account comes from his book, Herpetofauna of West Africa, Vol. 1: Amphibians of the West Africa Savanna. I wonder if edulis in western Africa are slightly different than those in southern Africa?

As far as P. obbianus, I don't have any more information than what I posted earlier on the P. Differences thread. Since they are from eastern Africa, I found out that none of my field guides cover that part of Africa. I know that Channing wrote a recent book on amphibians of eastern Africa - I ordered it today

[Malachi]

Hi Folks:
Mark-Oliver Roedel mentions that the dorsum (back) of P. edulis is more or less uniform yellow-green or olive-drab. Males are more greenish, while females are more olive brown. Females are most likely have a pale vertebral stripe and light lines on the ridges and warts.

The lower lip, fingertips and venter (belly) are uniform cream color. Males have dark yellow throats. On some individuals, the venter is completely yellow. The webs are darkly pigmented.

Juveniles have a bright, light green vertebral stripe, golden-brown speckles and black markings on dark green skin. These dark markings appear on lips and extremities.

Here is Roedel differs from Channing and Carruthers, Roedel says there is a dark patch present in the center of the tympanum. All the other sources I read say a light or white spot.

This description seems to match my edulis well, you can see from the photos i posted yesterday.

[onedge30]

Terry, by descriptions alone, do we know if obbianus is closer to edulis or adspersus? In appearance.