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Thread: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

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    Question Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Hi everyone!

    I am new to this forum and a first time frog owner. I currently have three whites tree frogs living in a communal, bio-active vivarium. One of my whites tree frogs suddenly looks bloated and I found it sitting awkwardly hunched over. I'm not sure how to describe it but it was sitting with its back scrunched up so that its belly wasn't touching the ground and its back bones were protruding more so than normal. I have never seen it sit like that and I had just noticed the slight bloating so I wasn't sure if they were correlated? In that same moment I also noticed one of my other whites tree frogs starring at it and then lunged/jumped at it. So I was thinking maybe it was sitting like that as a defense mechanism? I have had these frogs in the same tank for almost a month now and haven't seen or experienced any of them being aggressive towards each other or lunging at each other. Any ideas?

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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by dumpyjunky View Post
    Hi everyone!

    I am new to this forum and a first time frog owner. I currently have three whites tree frogs living in a communal, bio-active vivarium. One of my whites tree frogs suddenly looks bloated and I found it sitting awkwardly hunched over. I'm not sure how to describe it but it was sitting with its back scrunched up so that its belly wasn't touching the ground and its back bones were protruding more so than normal. I have never seen it sit like that and I had just noticed the slight bloating so I wasn't sure if they were correlated? In that same moment I also noticed one of my other whites tree frogs starring at it and then lunged/jumped at it. So I was thinking maybe it was sitting like that as a defense mechanism? I have had these frogs in the same tank for almost a month now and haven't seen or experienced any of them being aggressive towards each other or lunging at each other. Any ideas?
    The backbones sound like calcium deficiencies. Is the bone of the anus sticking out like does it look like the frog has a small stubby tail?

    You can try to use a gut load that I have had success with. It will help solve deficiencies in calcium. Get the gut load in the link below!



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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Xoxoxo can you post a photo of the frog? What does he est, supplements, has he toileted, soaked, any skin discoloration? I have four whites, all males i think. We have had whites for more than 20 years ( oldest we have hsd was 18).They are totally social and nonaggressive. They are called “ dumpy” because they do look kind of dumpy. A photo would really help people see if your frog looks ill. Hope he is all better soon.

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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Kind of? It sort of comes to a little point at its bottom. I feed them 2-3 times a week and have been dusting my crickets with vitamin supplements. Could that not be enough? I will definitely check that out if it will help tho!

  7. #5

    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwebster View Post
    Xoxoxo can you post a photo of the frog? What does he est, supplements, has he toileted, soaked, any skin discoloration? I have four whites, all males i think. We have had whites for more than 20 years ( oldest we have hsd was 18).They are totally social and nonaggressive. They are called “ dumpy” because they do look kind of dumpy. A photo would really help people see if your frog looks ill. Hope he is all better soon.
    Unfortunately, the front camera on my phone is broken. It still works but the pictures aren't the best quality :/ I will try to post a picture soon but I'm not sure if it will be helpful

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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    The frog is bloated, no picture, but its pretty clear from your description and because of the bloating he sits the way you described. Now there could be a few reasons for this to happen... and one of them jumps right away when i hear “bioactive tank”.
    Most common causes: impaction or infection or both, other causes could be kidney failure and some others. Now how to deal with that if possible and how to help depends of the cause, so first of all - when the frog ate last when did he pooped last if known? What are you feeding them? How long do you have them? How the quarantine was done? What is the husbandry? Where there recent substancial changes in temperature? What kind of water are you using? What are you feeding, how ate you feeding, what is dusting regime and what are you using. Picture of the tank would be very helpful.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    If you use that gut load that is a good start you might want to get your whites tree frogs checked out by a vet. If you can answer the questions above that will really help us to understand more on the situation.

    The gut load I told you to use does not require any dusting insects or feeding them anything else. I was actually recommended not to do that. But if your frogs are very sick the gut load can only do so much.

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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    I gotta stop you right there.
    The best gut load for crickets is natural - carrots, oranges, lettice, and so on. There are a lot of commercially made gutload products, by different brands, each of them advertized as being the best, nothing special needed and so on. While this definately a convinience, by any means this is no better then natural feed and the claims that you dont need any products for dusting is just simply not true. Its sad actually that people believe these things and then we see so many cases where clients bring patients in, and starting conversation with “pet store people said” or “the package said”, etc.
    Even buying dusting products its very important to follow exp dates, and usem them in moderation and appropriate ones. Say you cant use multivitamins every time.
    Gutloaded crickets by any definition is this frogs problem, vet would be the best bet, but depending on a cause the prognosis could be sad.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lija View Post
    I gotta stop you right there.
    The best gut load for crickets is natural - carrots, oranges, lettice, and so on. There are a lot of commercially made gutload products, by different brands, each of them advertized as being the best, nothing special needed and so on. While this definately a convinience, by any means this is no better then natural feed and the claims that you dont need any products for dusting is just simply not true. Its sad actually that people believe these things and then we see so many cases where clients bring patients in, and starting conversation with “pet store people said” or “the package said”, etc.
    Even buying dusting products its very important to follow exp dates, and usem them in moderation and appropriate ones. Say you cant use multivitamins every time.
    Gutloaded crickets by any definition is this frogs problem, vet would be the best bet, but depending on a cause the prognosis could be sad.
    That's actually proven to be false now. The Mazuri Gut Load actually was proven in studies to be the best food for insects. I used carrots and such but that didn't do anything for my animals. My toads especially were suffering because of not using the Mazuri. I have seen a dramatic difference myself using this. I was told this by an exotic vet that specializes in amphibians. You really do not need to dust using the Mazuri either it even says this on the package. My vet worked with Ripley's Aquarium, a zoo in Tennessee and so on. I'm not trying to sound aggressive I wouldnt mind discussing this in a civil manor but yes the Mazuri is better then carrots and such. I'd have to get a link to the study from her to prove it if you would like me to. I also was not told this by a pet store. Only an experienced vet.

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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Here is a link from Herpetologist Frank Indiviglio on Mazuri

    http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre.../#.XE5UbVNOk0M

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  13. #11

    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lija View Post
    I gotta stop you right there.
    The best gut load for crickets is natural - carrots, oranges, lettice, and so on. There are a lot of commercially made gutload products, by different brands, each of them advertized as being the best, nothing special needed and so on. While this definately a convinience, by any means this is no better then natural feed and the claims that you dont need any products for dusting is just simply not true. Its sad actually that people believe these things and then we see so many cases where clients bring patients in, and starting conversation with “pet store people said” or “the package said”, etc.
    Even buying dusting products its very important to follow exp dates, and usem them in moderation and appropriate ones. Say you cant use multivitamins every time.
    Gutloaded crickets by any definition is this frogs problem, vet would be the best bet, but depending on a cause the prognosis could be sad.
    So, I did my best trying to take pictures and I figured I would just take pictures of all of my frogs because I'm starting to go mad with worry. Again, I apologize that these pictures aren't great quality (the tiny black specs are just my front camera because the glass around it was broken.) I feel bad because I'm also having difficulty telling them apart other than their sizes :/ I decided to give each of them a warm soak (I've read that these can help if there are blockages). I noticed afterwards that one of them did poop but it was more of a light brown/clear liquid. I found another one of them this morning pooping but this time it was a dark brown, almost black liquid :/ I have only had them for a little over a month now. I feed them about 2 or 3 times a week with crickets dusted in Rep-Cal Herptivite w/beta carotene and Rep-Cal Phosphorus free calcium with Vit.D3. I fed them two days ago, all of them ate really well except for one which is the one that was leaking the dark brown liquid this morning. I got them from a breeder at the New England reptile expo and have had trouble contacting the breeder since then. She didn't have a name at her booth or any contact cards. I feel so stupid but I honestly just got really excited in the moment and didn't think to ask for her contact info if I had any problems or further questions.

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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by dumpyjunky View Post
    So, I did my best trying to take pictures and I figured I would just take pictures of all of my frogs because I'm starting to go mad with worry. Again, I apologize that these pictures aren't great quality (the tiny black specs are just my front camera because the glass around it was broken.) I feel bad because I'm also having difficulty telling them apart other than their sizes :/ I decided to give each of them a warm soak (I've read that these can help if there are blockages). I noticed afterwards that one of them did poop but it was more of a light brown/clear liquid. I found another one of them this morning pooping but this time it was a dark brown, almost black liquid :/ I have only had them for a little over a month now. I feed them about 2 or 3 times a week with crickets dusted in Rep-Cal Herptivite w/beta carotene and Rep-Cal Phosphorus free calcium with Vit.D3. I fed them two days ago, all of them ate really well except for one which is the one that was leaking the dark brown liquid this morning. I got them from a breeder at the New England reptile expo and have had trouble contacting the breeder since then. She didn't have a name at her booth or any contact cards. I feel so stupid but I honestly just got really excited in the moment and didn't think to ask for her contact info if I had any problems or further questions.
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  15. #13

    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    And here is a picture of their enclosure. Name:  vivarium2.jpg
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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    I need to appologize. I meant to say - gutloaded or not crickets are NOT this frogs problem.

    runny poop is good! Well, not really, but its much better then impaction or kidney failure. Combination of bloating and runny dark almost black poop shows infection, most likely protozoan, but could be bacterial, but good news here that is treatable, if started on time. Its common in frogs that didnt undergo proper quarantine and placed in naturalistic vivariums. It looks very humid by the way - what is your humidity?
    You need vet Asap! And make sure you have poop sample with you. They will do fecal, depending on results, prescribe medication, depending in severity of bloating they might dispense solution for soaking as well.

    Do not soak in water, it is isotonic solution. You need the opposite, you need hypertonic one, so for time being you could get pedialyte, mix 1 part of it with 5 parts of dechorinated water, place a frog for 20 min at a time.
    You didnt say what mind of water do you use, but it has to be either dechlorinated tap (use any fish tank eater conditioner, i prefer prime) or you could use spring water from the bottle.
    That soak wont solve the issue, but will replace some minerals and should reduce bloating somewhat, but as i said you need vet asap to help this frog.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Wardog View Post
    That's actually proven to be false now. The Mazuri Gut Load actually was proven in studies to be the best food for insects. I used carrots and such but that didn't do anything for my animals. My toads especially were suffering because of not using the Mazuri. I have seen a dramatic difference myself using this. I was told this by an exotic vet that specializes in amphibians. You really do not need to dust using the Mazuri either it even says this on the package. My vet worked with Ripley's Aquarium, a zoo in Tennessee and so on. I'm not trying to sound aggressive I wouldnt mind discussing this in a civil manor but yes the Mazuri is better then carrots and such. I'd have to get a link to the study from her to prove it if you would like me to. I also was not told this by a pet store. Only an experienced vet.

    Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk
    I am a vet and I’m very happy that your toads are doing great! I would love to see the study you are reffering to if that is actual scientific study, by independant people not associated with manufacturer.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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  20. #16

    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lija View Post
    I need to appologize. I meant to say - gutloaded or not crickets are NOT this frogs problem.

    runny poop is good! Well, not really, but its much better then impaction or kidney failure. Combination of bloating and runny dark almost black poop shows infection, most likely protozoan, but could be bacterial, but good news here that is treatable, if started on time. Its common in frogs that didnt undergo proper quarantine and placed in naturalistic vivariums. It looks very humid by the way - what is your humidity?
    You need vet Asap! And make sure you have poop sample with you. They will do fecal, depending on results, prescribe medication, depending in severity of bloating they might dispense solution for soaking as well.

    Do not soak in water, it is isotonic solution. You need the opposite, you need hypertonic one, so for time being you could get pedialyte, mix 1 part of it with 5 parts of dechorinated water, place a frog for 20 min at a time.
    You didnt say what mind of water do you use, but it has to be either dechlorinated tap (use any fish tank eater conditioner, i prefer prime) or you could use spring water from the bottle.
    That soak wont solve the issue, but will replace some minerals and should reduce bloating somewhat, but as i said you need vet asap to help this frog.
    I use dechlorinated tap water (I use a Reptisafe water conditioner). I usually keep humidity around 60-70%. Is that too high? And unfortunately I called the nearest vet that will look at amphibians and they were going to charge me a hefty price just to bring him in and at the moment I do not have that kind of money I will definitely go and pick up some pedialyte since that is something I can afford at the moment.

  21. #17

    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    I had no idea that a naturalistic environment could be the result of something like this. Darnit.

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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Humidity is good... if you cant do vet, then all you could do it to try help yourself, but.... you really need prescription and you do need to know exactly what you are treating for. I dont know if Dr. Frye is still around, milano animal hospital, he used to accept poop samples shipped to him, test them and send you meds. I suggest you try to reach them, it would be less expensive if they still do it.
    You should place a frog in quarantine for time being- kritter keeper with 3 sides covered, paper towels, a plant you could run under hot water, everything needs to be changed daily, plant washed underrunning very hot water.
    Good luck with everything!
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by dumpyjunky View Post
    I had no idea that a naturalistic environment could be the result of something like this. Darnit.
    What happens in such environment is that everything that gets into in, stays and multiplies in it. For example protozoa is natural to have for frogs, its everywhere, most of them are commencal and nothing to worry about. In a wild every single frog has them with no problems even with patogenic ones, its like everything around us - lots and different bacterias and viruses, it is everywhere, but you need special kind of conditions to get sick, sometimes its stress, sometimes its just too many of them for body to handle ok.
    same with frogs, they are just fine with protozoa, they adapted to it, no problems, but The problem happenes when the frog that is not tested is being placed in enclosed space. Its better when everything in a tank gets stripped and desinfected monthly, you dont do that to naturalistic tanks, so all of that multiplies and everything is fine, until its too many of them for frog to handle and you see something like you are experiencing now. If that is protozoa, your other frog has it too, but perhaps it is still ok handling. So every time before placing a frog to naturalistic tank you need to make sure it is healthy. Fecal should be clean and if not... you will most likely have problems soon
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whites tree frog bloated and hunched over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lija View Post
    I am a vet and I’m very happy that your toads are doing great! I would love to see the study you are reffering to if that is actual scientific study, by independant people not associated with manufacturer.
    Yes I believe she was referring to a study done independently. I had no idea this brand existed until I went to the vet. The funny thing is I studied a lot of Frank Indiviglio and his care tips. I actually reached out to him personally and he has helped me with my understanding and husbandry of the Native species specifically. He loves his toads that's for sure! That's also really good for me!

    I will definitely try and get a link or something for you. I go back February 5th. Yes this food actually saved my animals. They were all in some way or another suffering with deficiencies and I was not skeptical of the food but I gave it a shot and I have noticed right now the animals that were declining made an 80% recovery.
    What I mean is there color came back, they became more active and alert and they look like they did at their best.

    The one way I never thought you could tell of deficiency in amphibians is the bone in their butt. Whenever the bone is not showing they are healthy and the animals that had the bone severely showing are the ones that made the dramatic recovery. It's only been a month coming up and I have animals that look unbelievably great. But with the plans that I have for my setup I need to have completely healthy frogs and toads. because if I'm going to abide by the state and different things I had to make sure that these were going to be the healthiest toads and frogs at least in my area.

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