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Thread: Pyxicephalus Differences

  1. #41
    Kevin1
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Very odd Jeff, The pictures posted by Malachi and the one you posted before that are what I always thought to be the "classic" Edulis.
    Did you receive the pictures I sent you last night?

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  3. #42
    onedge30
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Kevin, yep got your pictures. Last pm will download today.

    The pictures that I am being sent from Africa, are looking like the edulis we know, is the odd man out. I need to look more closely at this information before I post it. And send a few emails back and forth with the sources for positive identification.

  4. #43
    Malachi
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    What parts of Africa?

  5. #44
    Moderator tgampper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    The frog in Jeff's picture is more like what I know as edulis. Terry, do you have any of Carruthers or Passmore's books to hand? I know the book they wrote together in the late 90s has both species pictured extensively.
    Hi John,

    I have several books by Carruthers and Passmore as well as Mark-Oliver Roedel and Margaret Stewart. I have posted some description information on P. edulis on the Edulis? thread. Interestingly enough, it was Stewart that alerted me about the several other species of Pyxicephalus that are now assigned to Tomopterna.

  6. #45
    onedge30
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Hey Terry,

    Sorry about asking you for this book page. I forgot that it is from Buck Rogers.


    I don't know the book this came from, but these pictures are what I am leaning toward as adspersus and edulis.



    This picture was sent by a field research professor from South Africa. She worked on a study of Pyxicephalus. This is her study photo for P. edulis. This picture is from the Timbavati area near Kruger National Park, South Africa.

    I have sent her some of the images that we are calling edulis. I am waiting for a response.

  7. #46
    onedge30
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    With the email from South Africa. The researcher sent these descriptions.

    Adult P. adspersus
    Mass: 90 g to 1.2 kg (some say up to 1.4 kg)
    SVL: 90 mm to 230 mm (some say up to 250 mm)
    Colouration: light green or brown-green or dark green
    Other:
    Banding above mouth is absent or feint.
    White spot on tympanum is absent or small.
    White stripe down spine is absent or thin and feint.

    Adult P. edulis
    Mass: Guestimate: up to 400 g?
    SVL: Guestimate: up to 150 mm?
    Colouration: yellow-green or brown
    Other:
    Banding above mouth is prominent.
    White spot on tympanum is prominent.
    White stripe down spine is prominent.

  8. #47
    Kevin1
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    I'm anxious to hear what she says about our "Edulis". They're clearly very different from those pictures. Those pictures look like specimens I used to call the Tanzanian subspecies of Adspersus.

    Thats a handsome Adspersus in that book by the way.

    Thanks for posting.

  9. #48
    Moderator tgampper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    With the email from South Africa. The researcher sent these descriptions.

    Adult P. adspersus
    Mass: 90 g to 1.2 kg (some say up to 1.4 kg)
    SVL: 90 mm to 230 mm (some say up to 250 mm)
    Colouration: light green or brown-green or dark green
    Other:
    Banding above mouth is absent or feint.
    White spot on tympanum is absent or small.
    White stripe down spine is absent or thin and feint.

    Adult P. edulis
    Mass: Guestimate: up to 400 g?
    SVL: Guestimate: up to 150 mm?
    Colouration: yellow-green or brown
    Other:
    Banding above mouth is prominent.
    White spot on tympanum is prominent.
    White stripe down spine is prominent.
    I have the book that Darryn (Buck) sent you in your last post. It's called The First Field Guide to Frogs of Southern Africa, by Vincent Carruthers. He also wrote a companion guide called Frogs and Frogging in Southern Africa (includes CD). They are both available from Amazon.com. I recommend both of these books if you have an interest in African frogs. The researcher's description matches the books. I'll be compiling all the information for the guide soon. Thanks
    Terry Gampper
    Nebraska Herpetological Society




    “If we can discover the meaning in the trilling of a frog, perhaps we may understand why it is for us not merely noise but a song of poetry and emotion.”
    ---
    Adrian Forsyth

  10. #49
    Founder John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    This bears out what I suspected, and that is that we rarely see edulis for sale. Therefore, what are we seeing for sale really?

    And related to this, is this frog Pyxicephalus edulis? The photo is from my African Bullfrog article:


    It seems likely to me that it is.
    Founder of Frogforum.net (2008) and Caudata.org (2001)

  11. #50
    Moderator tgampper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Jeff,

    Do we have permission to use her photo on post #45? If so, that would be perfect.

    John,

    The photo you just posted is P. edulis. I was confused at first with the coloration and markings and thought it would fit perfectly in the genus Tomopterna, but the spot in the tympanum identified it as P. edulis. Also, the other features like the bars on the upper jaw, the distance between the eye and the tympanum and also the faint interorbital or interocular bar. We could use that photo also.

    I would say that the individuals in both pictures are females, am I right?

  12. #51
    Moderator tgampper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    This bears out what I suspected, and that is that we rarely see edulis for sale. Therefore, what are we seeing for sale really?
    IMHO, I think many importers/sellers of frogs and toads are just taking the word of their supplier and not really finding out for themselves what species they do have. Popular names seem to be a problem. If you notice the excerpts from the book that Darryn supplied a few posts earlier - Carruthers list P. edulis as African Bullfrog. In most other places, the African Bullfrog is P. adspersus. So when some suppliers list P. edulis as African Bullfrog, technically they are not wrong. We as buyers need to be more aware. That's why I thought putting together a Pyxie guide would be most helpful.

    Also, many frogs and toads have been assigned new genera or even families. This no doubt leads to confusion. I noticed that some ads list frogs using old names or synonyms, for the example we had earlier, Pyxicephalus delandi, actually in reality it's Pyxicephalus delalandei, now Tomopterna cryptotis. Sand frogs in the genus Tomopterna are also known as "pyxies".

    I think we are probably getting more P. edulis but being sold as P. adspersus (which may not be misleading either, since some scientists do not make the distinction between edulis and adspersus). In fact, I kinda like edulis, they are smaller and more colorful. (Please excuse my ramblings )

  13. #52
    onedge30
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Until I see differently, I have to agree that the two images of edulis in #45 and John's unknown are the 'true edulis'. And what has been labeled as edulis, in the pet trade, needs to be identified.

    Terry, I have the credit info for the image in #45, but I will double check on usage.

    Another question comes up, for me, and that is that the images in #45 and John's, for edulis, are juveniles and not adults. So, what does a full adult look like?

    I just receive an email from Louis du Preez with the pages from his book, A Complete Guide to the Frogs of Southern Africa. First, shock as to my requests for help on clarification had reached him. Second that he took the time to send information. What I am getting at ..... I sent him back images of what we seen labeled as edulis and an image, that I believe, to be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. So, I hope to hear from him, and get some clarification.

    This is the image that I believe may be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. We will see.

  14. #53
    Founder John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by tgampper View Post
    I would say that the individuals in both pictures are females, am I right?
    That animal is from the San Antonio Zoo. They acquired several individuals about 2 years ago now that were given to them as P. adspersus and they were puzzled as to why they weren't growing bigger, since they already have an adspersus male on display.

    The animal in my photo is a male, in my opinion - I had 2 others with which to compare him, and they seemed female. The size difference between the sexes was not as pronounced as P. adspersus, but the shape dimorphism was similar to P. adspersus. I may have more photos of this frog. I'll see what I can find when I get a shot at my other computer.
    Founder of Frogforum.net (2008) and Caudata.org (2001)

  15. #54
    Malachi
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Its also kinda Odd that the edulis in the book has a body more similar to say american bulfrog.. where my edulis is fat bodied like the giants.

    possibly its starved

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    Its also kinda Odd that the edulis in the book has a body more similar to say american bulfrog.. where my edulis is fat bodied like the giants.

    possibly its starved
    Most of the pix I've seen of edulis look more like bullfrogs then the fat-bodied adspersus. Maybe it was the fine cuisine you been feeding them.

  17. #56
    Moderator tgampper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    Until I see differently, I have to agree that the two images of edulis in #45 and John's unknown are the 'true edulis'. And what has been labeled as edulis, in the pet trade, needs to be identified.
    I agree with you. I think Malachi brought up the fact that edulis are more "bullfrog" shape than adspersus. That might be another clue in helping describe the species.

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    Terry, I have the credit info for the image in #45, but I will double check on usage.
    That would be awesome! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    Another question comes up, for me, and that is that the images in #45 and John's, for edulis, are juveniles and not adults. So, what does a full adult look like?
    Well, I think they are adults. There are very close similarities between juvenile edulis and adspersus. du Preez and Carruthers, in the book you mentioned, states that juveniles of both species are "distinctively marked bright green and black with a pale vertebral line from snout to vent." The photos in the book show that the vertebral line is a pale greenish color and that edulis has a white spot in the tympanum.

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    I just receive an email from Louis du Preez with the pages from his book, A Complete Guide to the Frogs of Southern Africa. First, shock as to my requests for help on clarification had reached him. Second that he took the time to send information. What I am getting at ..... I sent him back images of what we seen labeled as edulis and an image, that I believe, to be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. So, I hope to hear from him, and get some clarification.
    That is awesome. Dr. du Preez is professor of zoology at North-West University and heads the African Amphibian Conservation Group
    http://www.puk.ac.za/fakulteite/natuur/soo/drk/aacrg/index.html

    I hope he gets back with you soon.

  18. #57
    Moderator tgampper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    Until I see differently, I have to agree that the two images of edulis in #45 and John's unknown are the 'true edulis'. And what has been labeled as edulis, in the pet trade, needs to be identified.
    I agree with you. I think Malachi brought up the fact that edulis are more "bullfrog" shape than adspersus. That might be another clue in helping describe the species.

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    Terry, I have the credit info for the image in #45, but I will double check on usage.
    That would be awesome! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    Another question comes up, for me, and that is that the images in #45 and John's, for edulis, are juveniles and not adults. So, what does a full adult look like?
    Well, I think they are adults. There are very close similarities between juvenile edulis and adspersus. du Preez and Carruthers, in the book you mentioned, states that juveniles of both species are "distinctively marked bright green and black with a pale vertebral line from snout to vent." The photos in the book show that the vertebral line is a pale greenish color and that edulis has a white spot in the tympanum.

    Quote Originally Posted by onedge30 View Post
    I just receive an email from Louis du Preez with the pages from his book, A Complete Guide to the Frogs of Southern Africa. First, shock as to my requests for help on clarification had reached him. Second that he took the time to send information. What I am getting at ..... I sent him back images of what we seen labeled as edulis and an image, that I believe, to be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. So, I hope to hear from him, and get some clarification.
    That is awesome. Dr. du Preez is professor of zoology at North-West University and heads the African Amphibian Conservation Group.

    I hope he gets back with you soon.

  19. #58
    Moderator tgampper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Here is the link to the African Amphibian Conservation Research Group:

    AACRG

  20. #59
    Malachi
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Perhaps mine isn't the "true" Edulis because he is defiantly round bodied like the pictures ive seen.
    His legs are pretty small too, the Edulis in the book picture has American Bullfrogish legs

  21. #60
    onedge30
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    Default Re: Pyxicephalus Differences

    Ok, my head hurts. And I am most likely too dense to understand all this, so help me out. These are the emails from a conversation. I will try to post all the links that match.


    Dear Jeff,
    You are correct - identification and species boundaries in Pyxicephalus are confused and are currently subject to research by several groups (although in general the biology of this group is well studied). There is no question that P. adspersus and P. edulis are different species, however, immatures and smaller individuals can be very difficult to identify. Also, it is likely that multiple species are hiding under each of these names, occurring in different parts of Africa, contributing geographic variation to the difficulties of identification. In general, in southern Africa, P. edulis occurs in the lower lying coastal and river valley savanna, with P. adspersus in the high-lying (>1000m asl) grasslands, inland savanna and semi-arid areas.

    I suggest that you find a copy of:

    DuPreez L & Carruthers V (2009) A complete guide to the frogs of Southern Africa. Struik-random House, Cape Town ISBN: 978-1-77007-446

    for the latest overview (P. edulis & P. adspersus).

    Also another great site for the sort of information you might need is AmphibiaWeb
    http://www.amphibiaweb.org/index.html

    for the link to Pyxicephalus see...


    http://www.amphibiaweb.org/cgi-bin/a...re-submittedby

    this extracts information from authoritative books.


    regards,
    michael

    Dr Michael Cunningham
    University of the Free State, Qwaqwa
    Private Bag X13, Phuthaditjhaba 9866, SOUTH AFRICA
    phone: +27-(0)58 718 5327, fax: +27-(0)58 718 5444

    My comments back:

    Michael,

    Thanks for the heads up. Yes, the variation of the species populations across Africa could be a real problem in identification. And babies and juveniles are a nightmare to look for specific traits. Traits which may not be there yet or may be there but will fade to adulthood. Tough call.

    Great info on the geographic location. I will make note of that. Any thoughts on P. obbianus?

    Your last link leading to CalPhotos even shows some of the problems occurring with identification. In the first link, this photo is neither adspersus or edulis?
    http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/im...1111+1111+1200

    And in this second link, the photo on the left is very different from the photo on the right. What I am finding is the photo on the left is what is called edulis in the states, and the photo on the right is what is called edulis in Africa. What a mess.
    http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/im...el-lifeform=ne

    Thank you for your time.

    Sincerely,

    Jeff

    Comments back: That I guess I don't see that they can be the same.

    Hi Jeff,
    At least in Southern Africa it isn't so hard to separate the two species - including the juveniles.

    DuPreez & Carruthers give the following characters...
    edulis usually has a white mark on the tympanum which is absent in adspersus
    edulis has a pale interorbital bar (with pale transverse marks on the dorsal eyelid) which is absent in adspersus
    edulis has the tympanum about 1 eye-width from the eye, in adspersus it is closer to twice this distance
    edulis has irregular pale vertical bars on the upper lip which are absent from adspersus

    in addition adspersus tend to have the orange axillary marks and mouth and elongate white marks along the dorsal skin folds

    On all these characters the photos from CalAcad check out pretty well - I don't see that the edulis photos are necessarily from different species...it looks more like different individuals being photographed under different conditions and all correctly IDed.

    P. adspersus is the type species of the genus (which is type genus of the family).

    The type locality for P. adspersus is Cape Town (Cape of Good Hope) - which is actually ~400km SW of their distributional limit - meaning that this is where they were shipped or where the collectors were based (as were all collectors in Southern Africa of that period). At the time of description (1838) a few collectors had just reached as far as the Tropic of Capricorn but it is likely that this particular collection was made around Port Elizabeth on the South Coast.

    The type locality for P. edulis is Tete on the Zambezi R in NW Mozambique.

    These are the populations that must define the names and they are consistent with the above differences. The captive populations could be from anywhere and so their IDs may be dubious. I notice that one of the photos is referenced to Central South America - which is in error.

    P. obbianus is an obscure taxon from Somalia - I've never read the literature on it and don't really know how it would compare.

    The real problem is to discover whether P. anchietae from Mozambique near the Zambezi mouth is a valid species different from P. edulis and whether the species from Southern Africa are the same as those from North and West African savannas that are assigned to the same names.




    End: Please let me know if there are any clarifying question you all would like me to send back.

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