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Thread: Hey guys, new member...

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    Default Hey guys, new member...

    Hey guys. I've always been interested in frogs, kept plenty as a kid and now I have a son of my own who is interested in them. I always liked the look of the Australian Whites, so I picked up a couple at a local pet store here. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, no local breeders in this area of WA state. I did have a few questions I was hoping someone could help me with:

    1. Both my son's tree frogs are from Petco. I was told by a local pet store owner that all Petco frogs are wild-caught and will have parasites. Does that mean if I buy a captive-bred tree frog, they can't co-habitate?
    2. Is there a surefire way to tell the sexes apart? I read online to look for nuptial pads on a male frogs thumb. Are these easily visible or only during mating season? I also read that males ears are larger than their eyes, and female ears are smaller. The two I picked up for my son seem to have smaller ears, so I'm assuming for now they are female. I also haven't heard them croak at all, I did play a couple White tree frog calls on Youtube just to see if they'd react, but nothing so far
    3. Assuming the two tree frogs were wild caught, is there any danger in feeding them local critters? We have lots of bugs around here, I've only been feeding them petstore crickets for now. It'd be nice to just grab a few earthworms and throw those in instead of paying for bugs.
    4. Is there anyway specifically to breed crickets in captivity? Again relating to question 3, if I do have to purchase commercial crickets, it'd be nice to have my own at home as well to augment that.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated. When I get home, I'll try and take some close-up pics of the frogs, I'm sure that would help with the male/female debate.

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    Hey welcome to the forum.

    1. I doubt all of the frogs petco sell are wild caught but green tree frogs and fire-bellied toads. White's tree frogs are captive-bred all the time, there's a lot of money to make from them because they produce so much and fetch a decent price. I think Australia's pretty strict with the protection of their animals now because all the trouble they've had in the past. If you plan to introduce another frog at any point in time, make sure it's the same species and that it has been quarantined beforehand, so not to introduce any sickness to the others.

    2. Females are usually larger in most frogs, the exception being African bullfrogs, where the male is. The nautical pads will only be visable during the breeding season, as that's when they need them. As Whites produce thousands of eggs, if you're looking for a pair to breed you'd need a lot of space to do this, they're usually bred in large commercial facilities. You could cull of some of the eggs, however. Most tadpoles in the wild never reach adulthood like they would bred in captivity, that's why they lay so many.

    3. You can feed them local bugs but the problem is the risks of pesticides from where you find them. It's safer to feed them captive bred bugs and you'll need to feed quite a few too, these frogs are gannets.

    4. There's several books and online articles on how to breed crickets. I've never bothered to do this, they need several tanks and I'd rather save the space for more frogs lol. Consider culturing roaches, which only really need one large plastic bin.

    Jason

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    100+ Post Member Cliygh and Mia 2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    Hi! I think I can answer a few questions for you. Your white's may be CB (Captive bred) as they're a species that is commonly commercially bred, like the pac-man frog. That being said, there are some occasional WC (Wild caught) individuals of this species, they tend to be larger and closer to the adult form than normal CB petstore versions. If you quarantine them first, you can add some more white's tree-frogs to your group. Quarantine basically means keeping them separate for a period of time to watch the new-comers for diseases. Your frogs are probably juvenile, once they are adults, their genders may be easier to determine. WC or CB aside, WC food items are much worse than crickets from your petstore and other feeders, if you culture them or otherwise. If WC frogs have diseases and parasites, imagine what their food must have to give it to them in the wild! You can breed crickets and earthworms in captivity, the term is called "Culturing." Here's one for the crickets: https://www.google.com/#q=how+to+culture+crickets and night-crawlers (Which should be a major part of the major diet): http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/worms.shtml And when you get a chance, there's two more important things you could do. A, is to make sure that they get everything that they need, you could provide them some UVB lighting so they can bask and get important things, like vitamin D3 (Not sure if I said that right). And maybe post some pictures of them and their setup on here too, we can identify any problems that they may have. You'll unfortunately have to use an external image hosting site like imgur of photobucket, as the forum was hacked recently and the like option is gone as well as the ability to upload photos directly to the site. Thanks for reading, and I'm sure this is a start full of happiness and such for you and your frogs!

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    Thanks for the replies so far. To Jason, the guy at the pet store seemed a little put off when I mentioned I bought the first two at Petco. I understand he runs an independent business and they are the competition. This is our first venture into owning these types of frogs and Petco was the only place I could find initially that had them. I saw a lot of offerings online as well, not sure about ordering a live animal over the computer though. The two I bought from Petco seemed good so far. The brown is a bit larger than the other green one. I was worried initially it might bully the smaller one. I'm not sure what that type of behavior would look like, but this morning I saw them both sitting on the same leaf, so I took it as a good sign. The smaller one is on smaller crickets, and the big one grabbed a few, so that worried me a little. I was thinking later I might set the green aside with some crickets in a smaller enclosure, make sure she's getting fed if she's hungry. I told the store owner I already had two Whites at home, and he said his was CB and not to mix it with "that Petco fodder." I'd love to be able to co-house them so the blue guy wouldn't be by himself. I guess I could call the Petco where I bought them and see if they know if they were WC or CB. Is there a type of disease that would be readily apparent in the frogs that I could look out for before trying to mix them up? I will do my own research but a couple pointers to start out would be appreciated. As for your last comment, I hate roaches. I'm cool with feeding it pretty much anything else, but I hate those things...

    To Xavier, yeah I don't have a lighting set up right now. I've read in a few different places about 75 w bulbs, and running one during the day and one at night. The temp in my house is always around 70 degrees, and that's what they were at the petstore as well, so I haven't used any bulbs yet. Are they safe at 70 degrees? I will look into the UVB light though, the vitamin D3 thing makes sense to me. I live in WA state and take D3 myself, no sun here most days :P

    I will take some photos this evening to share with you guys. I didn't jump for the big Xterra terrarium, as this is kind of a trial thing for my son to see how it turns out. They do have a nice terrarium though. Let me know your thoughts/recommendations, and thanks again for the quick replies!

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    There's probably a high chance that the pet shop gets from the same people as Petco, Whites tree frog's will usually come from large scale breeding, which will sell to big and little stores. I've personally never seen a WC Australian White's tree frog for sale, always CB. It seems Petco does have quite a bad reputation but small businesses can equally be just as bad but because they're small, they get away with it.

    I don't think frogs generally bully each other but some might gobble down the food before the other gets the chance. If there's a great difference in size I would house them singly but you could always tong feed the smaller frog to get it's food. Just make sure the bigger one isn't big enough to eat the small one. You can mix CB with CB but not with WC, as the captive bred's may be vulnerable and less adapted to the natural pathogens the WC have. If you are mixing CB with CB I would just keep separate them for a minimum of 30 days in a hygienic set up with papertowels, look out for runny or bloody faeces. Make sure never to mix different species together.

    The temperature you're keeping them at just now is too low and will set them up for many health issues. I would also agree with the above, with the use of UVB bulb. I'd recommend you get a book, frogs are pretty complex and delicate, requiring specific perimeters met in order to thrive. There's a lot of bad information on the internet as well and it's not as in depth as a book will offer. A good read would be Popular tree frogs by Philippe de Vosjoli, Bob Mailloux and Drew Ready, which will pretty much set you up for success, whilst some others are Treefrogs by Devin Edmonds and Amphibians in Captivity by Marc Staniszewski

    With the size of Exo Terra, aslong as you have the 18 x 18 x 24" you're fine but no smaller for adults.

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  11. #6

    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    I talked to Petco and they relayed to me that while they don't know for certain whether they were CB or WC, the frogs only cost $20 so the likelihood is they are WC. CB would be closely monitored/labor etc. and would cost a lot more. So at this point I'm going to keep the Petco guys and the CB apart.

    When I purchased the two frogs from Petco, I checked the temp gauge in their enclosure and it was reading 70 degrees, so I thought I was good. However, checking a few more sources, I know now I need to keep it warmer. Do you recommend heating pads or a lamp? I'd prefer a lamp personally, I worry about the pads getting too hot or melting something. I've also heard they can malfunction sometimes and heat up the substrate to an unsafe level. I already have one lamp and daytime bulb I can use today. I will need to purchase another daylight bulb for the other enclosure, and two infrared bulbs. Would 60 watt suffice? Our home is usually around 70 degrees naturally anyway, I don't want it to get too hot in there. Any advice would be great!

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    Yeah....

    first of all welcome to the forums!

    Now for your questions and I'm going to disagree with some people here

    Yes, if you bought them from petco - most likely they are WC, and the guy from the small store giving you "the look" is very understandable because of the reputation petco has. They are not competition and never will be, nobody would buy any animal from the petco knowing their animal housing and selling practices. Small, specialized stores on the contrarary, care about the animals and their wellbeing and will be definately better source of information and animals too.
    I am generalizing here, there are small stores that you better run away and I know nothing about the pet store you have been to. And in any way I'm not blaming you for getting frogs at petco, you care and the fact that you are asking questions shows it! and I very strongly susspect you saved them too.
    CB whites are not that common in pet stores in North America, they are appearing from time to time, but still majority on the market WC and unfortunately most of the imports are from Indonesia, where about 20% of whites population are infected with "spargana" ( intermittent form of tapeworm). The is nothing you can do about it without possibly killing the frog, it's not danger to you or any other frog you have, in a year or two you might start to see ulcer looking lesions. And you might not see that, so don't stress out now.
    The other parasites are different, but easily treated with panacur. You can contact dr. Frye ( Milan vet. Hospital), he can ship meds to you and explain how to treat.
    And yes you don't want to mix WC and CB. After deworming and long time captive care ( at least a year) in theory it should be fine, but personally I would never do it. CB are not being exposed to the stuff WC did, there is always a danger for CB to be in a contact with WC.


    Heating - yes infrared lamp or ceramic heaters are better then heat pad, safer too heat pads don't heat up air well. Get the dome with the dimmer so you can control the temps. Or you can get controller, hydrotherm is my personal favourite.
    You might want to get a thermometer ( digital) to check on themps.

    wild caught food. You DO NOT want to do that! As Jason pointed out they will carry everything and anything that we damp into the nature (Pesticides, chemicals), that stuff travel far and unless you are 100% sure the area ( big area) is free from roads, agriculture, etc you better not do it. I'm not sure though that kind of area exists, unless may be in the mountains after like 2-3h hike
    i very highly doubt you want to culture crickets, like really... They stink like no tomorrow, you can minimize that by cleaning, etc, I did, thank you much, I'd rather go buy, and I buy 1000 Crickets every 2 weeks. For 2 frogs, you don't need much, just get some from the pet store, gut load them, keep in a separate container ( tub) until all eaten, then clean the tub and get more.
    And if you having 2 frogs and cricket breeding going.... What are you going to do with all the crickets? They produce a lot and there will be escapees too

    you our might want to check tree frog subforum, lots of information on whites here as well it would be better to ask in there too, more people will see it.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    The local small pet shops I've been to have kept their amphibians in mixed vivs with species requiring very different care, without heat or light and basically sell you them without asking any questions ever and if you ask for advice they give you a load of rubbish, so pet shop varies from pet shop. I personally wouldn't use a red lamp, it does seem to disturb any animal I put it on. True infrared that reptiles and amphibians can't see produces no light whatsoever like a ceramic heat emitter. A white heat lamp would be best and you're fine unless temps drop less than 65oF at night. A night time drop is an important part of the D3 cycle, which is sometimes overlooked. Heat pads can be used without any risk of burning the animal, they just need to be used correctly, with a thermostats but for an arboreal herp they don't do much and above heat sources are much better. For the reason Lija pointed out is exactly why I can never be bothered culturing crickets lol but it's still important to keep them in a tank for a short while to gut load them before feeding
    Last edited by jasonm96; May 17th, 2016 at 02:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    define how exactly you see that infrared lamps disturb any animal? That is not true and there are studies to back it up, there are no proven reports to say otherwise either.
    In fact infrared lamps are my preferred choice over ceramic heaters, they warm up and cool off faster that makes them to be able to fine tune temps when plugged into controllers faster that is very important for some very temperature sensitive species, whites are not one of them, so doesn't really matter

    heat at pads can burn any animal if it is sitting on it directly, it is not the case when the pad is attached to the bottom and you have non borrowing species and substrate on the bottom, but if you do that the air is not heating up much, making it pretty useless and if you attach it to the wall of the tank and you have a tree frog that might decide to sleep there you most likely have a problem.

    small stores are not all the same and I'm sure there is a difference between UK stores, Canadian stores and US, but chances you get better information are way higher there then in a stores like Petco, Petlands, etc. But like with any information it is the best to look for multiple sources of information and pick up what makes the most sense to you and not to rely on information coming from the sellers unless they are reputable breeders.

    with any subject there are lots of opinions, probably the most argued about topic being UVB usage. I say when you look for a care sheet and read different sources, compare what you are reading to how frogs live in a wild. Reseach their natural habitat! There is a care sheet for litoria cearulea in a sticky thread in tree frog subforum too.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    With my animals they won't come out or show differences in behaviour when they're used. Reptiles at least can see a wide variety of colours, more than us so the likelihood of that they can't see red is small. Not sure on amphibians. However, red lights do not produce the full spectrum of light which stimulate daylight, so are 'less disturbing'. At the same time is there any studies out there showing that reptiles can't see red light? At least with ceramics, however you are 100% sure no visible light is produced and they also last longer, bulbs wear out from being moved or dimmed. With beardies and chameleons hobbyists usually disagree on red bulbs, saying that they will keep the animals up. Not saying I'm an expert on this subject and that red lights will actually cause problems but I prefer not to use them myself, I have seen differences and play it safe so I don't worry, by leaving no lights on at night. Just LED lights for a while if I wanna view my herps.

    No, they really can't. If you put the thermostat probe directly on the mat or glass heated, then it will stay at the temperature set. Any burns would come from wet burn, when animals are kept in unhygeinic conditions. So it's bad husbandry and heat mats used without stats that would cause burns.

    With UVB... Vitamin d3 in the form of supplements is fat soluble and effects some species more severely than others and Treefrogs have been noted to be sensitive. They also sleep exposed in the wild or at the least get reflected UVB. Comes down on how much of a natural and safe environment the keepers wants to create.
    Last edited by jasonm96; May 17th, 2016 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Edited

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    Jason, I don't think you treated enough burned by heat mats animals it is not fun for anyone involved, these burns are difficult to treat, usually there is big area affected and because of that the survival rates are not that high, especially in amphibians. that is not the place or time to argue about it and why would you put the probe directly on UTH? the idea is to use any source of heat the way it creates the gradient similar to such in a wild. You want to place your probe in a dead centre where animal lives, that is where we measure temps. It will be hotter closer to the heat source and colder further away. Not talking about snakes/beardies, etc here.
    Anyhow lets focus on helping OP to have happy frogs that would live long by providing advise on safe and effective ways of doing things.

    Oh there was also the question of UTH malfunctioning. They rarely malfunction if used properly and they are single use ( the ones that stick on). You can't reposition UTH once it is attached, otherwise you risk damaging it, malfunctioning and possibly fire.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Hey guys, new member...

    I can understand it's not nice and I'm sorry to hear but this not the mats fault but rather the use of it and unfortunately some of the instructions that come with the mats are not in depth enough to prevent this... at least some mats provide good instructions and forums come in handy for discussing their use. You're right with the thermal gradients and heat mats can make these but not the same as a heat lamp or ceramic, they only create a hot spot, which must be controlled by a thermostat. So you keep the species at the room temp suitable for the cool end or apply additional overhead heat sources to warm the air and cool end and then the mat is used to create a warm spot. If you were using a heater that warms the ambient air as well, then you can move the thermostat probe to the middle or cool end, depending on what you wish to control but mats must be controlled directly. I prefer to buy the mats that don't have adhesive and they're the carbon clothes ones, which as far as I know have never malfunctioned but the printed ones have. I've stopped using mats for these reasons and much prefer overhead heating.

    Anyway, yes let's focus on that. Haha!

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