trouble with 4 month old pacman frog, sticking legs out stiff

[jasonm96]

That's true, some of my animals have been fine with it and others have not. I think you should try the red bulb, you won't need it on at night unless temps drop below 70f. I'm just thinking that ceramics get really hot and so if you have a normal 10 gallon glass tank with a screen cover this can make maintenance difficult and dangerous, having to move it to get in. For controlling a ceramic or bulb you plug the dome or wire fixture into the thermostat then probe the probe where you wanna control temps and fiddle about with it to achieve the right temp gradient. If 24 heat is needed try the red bulb first and see how the animal reacts to it, if doesn't like it then the mat will be the better choice

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@jasonm96
ok! thank you (and monster) for the help, I appreciate it a lot and I'll try to update the topic with how ciopinno is doing, I'm going to dust every day from now on and hopefully he starts to feel better... I'm just trying to keep a positive outlook now and hope for the best. I do think that I've caught it early though so hopefully it can be fixed with the proper dusting

[jasonm96]

No problem I think everything should be good, it's when it's far gone that it becomes more complicated and you'd be able to tell at that stage by skeletal problems, which your frog doesn't seem to have

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so I got the liquid calcium and I've been giving him soaks (measuring it out correctly and everything) and he's been doing a TON better. no more sticking legs out stiff, no more trembling or struggling to move. no more acting dead. he's been back to how he regularly acts which is very good!

BUT the problem is. he still won't eat by himself... I've been assisting him by opening his mouth gently and placing the bug in, and then he'll swallow it on his own. but lately he's been getting upset and trying to spit it back out. which I don't blame him, I imagine it stresses him quite a bit to have me shove food in his mouth, but I'm just worried that he's not eating... should I stop feeding him and just do calcium soaks and see if he comes around? that way he'd still be getting his calcium and all and then maybe he'd come around to food...

it's just that these frogs are normally the quickest to take food and he's not the least bit interested. I've tried crickets, phoenix worms, dubia roaches... I don't want to do mealworms cause of their chitin shell and he's so little that I feel it could block him up.

I've also tried feeding him inside the enclosure with tongs, leaving bugs in a bowl in the enclosure over night, taking out and placing him in a bowl with the bugs (which is what I usually do to ensure he doesn't eat any moss or substrate) and I've tried feeding him out of the enclosure with tongs too. just not interested at all and it worries me.

[monster]

Hi, glad to hear hes doing abit better. Ya if you have been able to force him to eat something for ya in the past couple days you may want to let him just relax, force feeding is very stressfull on them and if hes sick with something already the added stress is just going to make him worse. Stress lowers there immune system making them more accessible to what ever is making them ill or even new illnesses. IMO I would try and find a herp vet so you can get him looked at, and in the mean time if he is doing better from the stiffening legs and stuff and its just his appetite im thinking maybe some Repti-Boost may give him a shot of energy and help him get that desire to eat back. Or you can try a pedylite bath this helps with energy also I just don't kinow if its as good as repti-boost or a similar product. If you go the pedylite way you want it to be non flavoured and mix 1 oz of pedylite to every 10 oz of water. But again IMO I think it may time for a trip to the vet.

[Heatheranne]

So, I've read through most of the posts, but somewhat quickly and did not memorize all of the data.

I would definitely said the same... Low blood calcium levels. Twitching, tremors, inability to move with coordination, progressing to seizures and paralysis. What is not often mentioned is that low calcium affects all muscle function, including smooth muscle. When smooth muscle function is limited, peristalsis in the gut slows down, thereby decreasing digestion, and appetite.

Proper heat and humidity levels will also affect digestion. Proper heat aides in digestion. Hypothermia will decrease the rate of digestion and the food lingers longer in the belly, causing bloating. The best temps for Pacman frogs are up around 80'F during the day and no less than mid to upper 70's at night. This can be accomplished with heat lamps and heat pads. Pads should never be placed on the glass bottoms, due to the risk of burns. Place heat pads on side walls. My pacs have heated corners... Heat pads on two walls in one corner.


Low humidity can lead to dehydration and deceased internal fluid, thereby making food more solid and difficult to lubricate or pass. Humidity should be around 75-80%, with moist substrate, but not muddy wet. A shallow water bowl of fresh water should be provided and water should be changed daily. Pacs will soak and absorb (drink) as needed. I soak my pacs twice a week no matter what, just after a meal. They will learn to enjoy their soaks. Water should be lukewarm at 80'F. Water should be dechlorinated. Chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals will cause toxicity and need to be reversed/neutralized. Some bottled water contains chlorine or chloramines. Distilled water is okay for misting but should never be used to moisten substrates or for soaking. Distilled water has no minerals, and is hypotonic, and can actually pull electrolytes out through the frogs skin, leading to deficiencies. Dechlorinated tap water has minerals needed for balance. Repashy with calcium plus is a great vitamin and provides necessary vitamin and mineral needs. It is recommended to use a calcium with vitamin D3 supplement I various days as well. I use Repashy 2x/week on young pacs, and Repcal calcium/vita D3 2-3x/week, but not on the same days as the Repashy. My adults eat less often and I rotate back and forth.

Another reason for lack of appetite can be intestinal parasites. They cause inflammation of the intestines, bloating, and discomfort. The symptoms are lack of appetite, bloating, lethargy, and runny stools. Feces testing can be done to determine the parasite. Most parasites can be treated by a vet with Panacur, Metronidizole, or Ivermectin. Proper dosing is done by weight.

[Heatheranne]

Good luck!

My suggestions are to get your tank settings as close to perfect as possible, keep up on the supplements, and have a feces test done. Walmart sells night crawlers which can be cut to size. Be sure they have no dyes or scents added.

[Heatheranne]

Oh, forgot to mention...
Calcium is not well absorbed without vitamin D3. Be sure your calcium has it .

[jasonm96]

Heather, heat pads will not burn frogs when used in conjunction with a thermostat like they should be. Only heat pads that are unstatted or set at the wrong temp will, this will apply to them being used on the wall as well. Also proper monitoring of temps is essential, which should be done by a digital thermometer directly ontop of the mat and not an analogue thermometer. Also, if conditions are kept dirty and the frog stays on the mat the frog may develop an infection that might look like a burn (though I've never seen this) frequently cleaning out the burrow and changing substrate as needed will prevent this. I just wanted to clear that up because keepers that use them correctly shouldn't worry about their frogs being burned. That being said, above heat sources are better because it's more natural and they warm the ambient air temperature, so are best for cold houses.

You don't need to use calcium plus with a different supplement for D3 btw, it has it in it The normal one has medium levels, which I the one I use and there's also a high and low one too.

[Heatheranne]

Here is a good article about electrolytes and minerals. It is difficult to find articles pertaining to only amphibians. This article is human based, but describes each function coordinated by different electrolytes and minerals. All living animals need varying amounts of such for bodily functions. Levels of necessity vary per species and size. This article is listed only to help understand the needs and their functions in general.

Enjoy the reading .

Keep in mind, some electrolytes can pass through porous membranes such as blood vessels, cell walls, and skin. Level vary on cell types and skin types. Therefore in amphibians, electrolytes are taken in via diet, and absorbed through their skin. Frogs are highly absorptive. Some minerals are insoluble in fluids and will not "absorb" through osmosis or soaking. They need to be ingested. Levels of absorption are also variant with water levels. Some electrolytes "follow" water. The goal is an overall proper balance.



http://www.builtlean.com/2012/11/28/electrolytes/

[Heatheranne]

Heather, heat pads will not burn frogs when used in conjunction with a thermostat like they should be. Only heat pads that are unstatted or set at the wrong temp will, this will apply to them being used on the wall as well. Also proper monitoring of temps is essential, which should be done by a digital thermometer directly ontop of the mat and not an analogue thermometer. Also, if conditions are kept dirty and the frog stays on the mat the frog may develop an infection that might look like a burn (though I've never seen this) frequently cleaning out the burrow and changing substrate as needed will prevent this. I just wanted to clear that up because keepers that use them correctly shouldn't worry about their frogs being burned. That being said, above heat sources are better because it's more natural and they warm the ambient air temperature, so are best for cold houses.

You don't need to use calcium plus with a different supplement for D3 btw, it has it in it The normal one has medium levels, which I the one I use and there's also a high and low one too.

If your frog has symptoms of tetany than he needs more calcium. Whether it be your dusting schedule or supplement choice... Tetany is an absolute sign of deficiency.

True, if your vitamin had calcium and vitamin D3 and your frog shows no signs of deficiency and is in good health, no excess calcium is needed. However, I have seen over the years several frogs with other deficiencies when not using a vitamin supplement in coordination with calcium/vita D3.

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thank you everyone for the help! I will be getting a heat pad very soon (with thermostat of course) and I will stick it on the side in one of the corners of the tank like my toad tank is. I am going to leave him be for the next few days and not try to feed him by force, but I will keep up the calcium soaks so he gets proper calcium.

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btw I should only need the small UTH right?

[Heatheranne]

How much do you need to increase the temp?
Some have thermostats, many do not. If it does, any size that fits the area and can be adjusted to the temp you need is fine. If not, read the instructions to see about how much each pad will raise the temp and choose which will be best for your needs. We hear our whole frog room to 75'F and add the small pads.

[jasonm96]

You want one that will cover one third and up to half of the length of the tank. Go for carbon cloth mats, not printed as these are safer. I think in your country you can get ones under the brand cobra, these are cloth. Keep in mind if your room isn't already heated, a heat mat on the wall may not supply enough heat. Thermostats are bought separate but some mats have cut offs, though a thermostat should always be used anyway.

[monster]

I use heatmatts on my tanks and as Jason stated and I will agree that when on the side they don't raise the temp to half there potential. The trick I learned and it works like a charm is you want to build a 3 sided wall around the tank to help hold the heat in so it doesn't just go up into the air. So you would build a wall as high as the tank around the back and 2 sides, it almost acts the same as if it was on the bottom in between a table and the tank. I keep my frog room in the winter at 72f and doing it this way im able to get the 82f. If your having a hard time pictureing what I mean let me know and I will put a picture up a little later.

[jasonm96]

You can also put a polyesterne sheet on the back of the mat, it directs the heat back in to the tank. My concern is that in order to raise the temp a lot the mat would have to get very hot, so the frog could get burned by the side glass heated. When used below this is not a problem because the floor bottom glass can be controlled to the desired temp. Some people may turn the thermostat high to get the surface temps warm but this isn't a necessary as the frog will burrow and get heated on the glass which will sit at the temperature set but it can also select an area away from the mat if needed. What is it you mean cory, have you got 3 mats?

[monster]

No, the 3 walls holds the heat and lets it travel around all 3 sides so its actually heating the glass on all sides. I leave about a half inch opening at each end so the air flow can go in one side and escape from the other so it pushes the warm air around the tank. My suggestion to anyone if they needed 3 matts would be save yourself the money and find a different way to heat your tank because this way obviously isn't working. Im editing because I didn't really answer you question, the 3 walls are made out of that cheap thin particle board stuff that is put into dresser drawers as the bottom. Its really easy to cut holes and stuff into for wires and such to that need to go through it.

[Thevacantface]

First impressions, just based on my experience with my littlest pacman having some muscle spasms at one point, is that your frogs mineral balance is or was off. Personally I had been soaking my frogs probably too often and they were leaching out, and the little guy showed symptoms first. Calcium and vitamin dustings per the care sheet in the sticky thread, and keeping the soil moist but not wet and a fresh bowl for them to use at their discretion seems to do pretty well for them. It's similar to muscle cramps in humans, usually means your potassium is too low, something he needs is probably too low.

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another update on him, he's doing great in the activity department (as far as pacmans go anyway)
but he's STILL not eating on his own. I'm getting pretty worried, so I think I may take him to a reptile vet sometime soon...

I've got the heat mat on his tank now, hooked up to the thermostat, and I read the temps with my temp gun and they're staying around 80-82, he's had the heat mat for less than a week I suppose so maybe he just needs more time? I don't know, but I'm getting worried for him

I put the bugs in and it's like he doesn't even notice. I'm becoming paranoid he's somehow blind because he doesn't notice them at ALL