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Thread: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Thank you I about gave up on this forum . Hearing intelligence was much needed. I'm not chiming in on lights anymore but you definitely need to innocent animals can be hurt if the owners are getting less than proper advice. You have good info and you use it well. Thanks again. Sorry to any kids on the forum for being rude to a member.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    I must have missed the arguments, but no bad thing. Forums are a great place to exchange views, opinions and information, but it doesn't need to descend to bad feeling. I'm happy to share the thinking from over here in the UK and Europe for discussion because like it or not it seems to be us keepers who are at the cutting edge of animal husbandry. If we wait for peer reviewed scientific articles to tell us how to care for our frogs, we'll be waiting a long time, there isn't a large amount of funding being given to scientists in that particular field!
    Red Eyed Tree Frogs actually do receive a lot of sunlight. Despite being well adapted to low light conditions (they are nocturnal after all!), they don't retreat to caves during the day and receive UVB from where they get their D3 (they don't receive it from their diet). There is also more to it than just D3, it's accepted that colours are more vibrant, behaviour is more active and breeding more readily achieved when UVB is provided. As I said, over here this thinking is the norm.
    While it's true that it's possible to keep Red Eyes without UVB, it's also possible to keep them in a foot cubed box with no leaves or branches and just a paper towel for substrate, but it's this kind of meeting bare minimum requirements that we should be leaving in the distant past.
    Modern husbandry should mean providing absolutely everything in our power to recreate the most natural and enriched habitats for our charges, not merely letting them just survive.
    To this end, whenever anyone asks the question 'Should I provide UVB?', the correct response should always be an unequivocal 'Yes!'
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  4. #43
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Thank you

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  5. #44

    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    I think this thread may have turned too argumentative. No one has the exact answers on what way of keeping them is best, and everyone will say their way is the best, because everyone tries their best to give their critters the best care possible. It's clear though that both ways of keeping this species specifically (A. callidryas, irregardless of what works with other species), work successfully. I do believe its a bit much to compare lack of uvb for a nocturnal animal (when d3 supplementation is required no matter what) to keeping an animal that instinctively hides under leaves all day in a bare bones tank. I work in a pet store, and have seen how people will dump us with unwanted animals who were just surviving in their care, but I think the evidence is more compelling for them being perfectly healthy with or without uvb, and that putting funds into a live planted tank with a clean filtered water source and drainage layer is of greater importance for this particular frog (especially in my case, where screen space is limited already and lack of air flow can create a better environment for infection to set in). I certainly respect your opinion though, it's clear you care a great deal about animals and I do agree that uvb is safer than no uvb, but for me access to fresh circulating air is a big concern (I've seen red leg before, and am extremely cautious of it occurring).

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  7. #45
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    It's true that nobody has the exact answers, to just about anything in life unfortunately! I am however contributing to this thread to let people know the established thinking among the vast majority of keepers and breeders over here.
    The UVB debate has been put to bed. It's available, it's necessary and is a standard part of husbandry. UVB has no effect on air circulation, so that is not an issue.
    Where UVB is provided, D3 supplementation is NOT given. Part of the reason to not rely on supplements is that you can't dose them. For calcium that doesn't matter because you can't overdose on calcium. You can however overdose on D3, so how do you know you're giving the right amount?
    Frogs are able to detect UVB and so are able to self regulate their intake. I have over 200 Red Eyes and when I look at them during the day some are on top of leaves, some are underneath. Millions of years of evolution is a wonderful thing Don't confuse nocturnal activity for not having a relationship to the sun, these animals get their D3 in the wild from nowhere else.
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Diver your my favorite person. I think so many inconclusive studies have been done it's created alot of confusing information to be spread . Until there's a study with good results I think why take the chance. My frog swallowed 4 rocks and if she had Mbd they wouldn't have been able to palpate them out. She would have broke. I've looked up studies and can't find anything supporting no uvb. Frogs get uvb from the sun even if they sleep under leaves. Side note my daughter put in the rocks.

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  9. #47

    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Again, thank you for your opinion (it is an opinion), but it is not "put to bed", it is your opinion, and you are starting to hit the point where you are dismissing other peoples experience, many with as much as you I'm sure. The air circulation is an issue for me as I only have half a screen top left, and classic dome fixtures would take up at least half of the remaining space, and bar lights that are available to me would cover even more. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but stagnant air and hygiene is a top priority for me, red leg is truly awful.
    I'm asking you to understand that your opinion is not THE right way, it is one of multiple right ways. I'm going to be going to an expo in a couple months with breeders who use and who don't use uvb, testimonials and conditions of their animals does not vary based on lighting, if something is the norm in the UK and yields good results it doesn't mean North American norms result in sub par results.

  10. #48
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Thank you to . Maybe at the expo you'll get some info on it that you can bring back and share. My worry is mbd . Is red leg uvb related. I assumed it was a mold or fungi type problem.

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  11. #49
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    I mean that over here in Europe/UK the debate has been put to bed. The air circulation really isn't an issue, remove one of your 26 watt 6500k CFL bulbs and replace it with a 5% UVB bulb. Air circulation unaffected.

    With so many reasons to provide UVB that have now been shared, could you share your reasons why you think denying it is better for the animals?
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  12. #50

    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Replacing with a 13w 5% rated at 5000k will result in less plant growth is my primary reason, the room they are in is very poorly lit (dim at best during the day) and the plants are growing quite slowly as is, despite being in there for quite a while and having these plant species grow well in other well lit areas of my house. Maintaining the plants at a larger size (being able to give the frogs natural dense foliage, better humidity levels, absorbing nitrates from waste etc) is a priority for me, I'm already looking into 7500k and up bulbs to try to get the plants up to that dense cover. The main argument I've seen for why uvb is necessary is mbd and providing a more natural environment. Most other information sources I've consulted suggest supplementing with calcium, d3 and a multivitamin whether uvb is used or not. I am skeptical that a uvb bulb should be used in place of that, as they are in no way as strong as sunlight. Bearded dragon owners who use some of the strongest available uvb lights on the market still supplement with calcium and d3. This practice seems standard for animals with uvb requirements all across the spectrum. Due to this, and the success of many others, it seems reasonable to assume that calcium+d3 supplements is a reliable and safe way to keep red eyes healthy, whereas uvb done incorrectly (my tank wont be set up the same way yours are) with minimal/no supplements could cause issues. My current opinion is that calcium+d3 powder should be seen as the requirement, and uvb as the extra, rather than other way around. The powder seems a much more direct way to get those vitamins directly into the frog (assuming feeding is done correctly), uvb seems more difficult to determine if it is putting out enough until it is too late. But hey, maybe my opinion will change once I get them home, or I'll give the uvb a shot, notice a difference, and if so I am more than willing to admit I was wrong, but in the mean time calcium+d3 and a multivitamin will meet their needs, based on the experience of many.

  13. #51
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    I don't know where you have got that information from, but I can assure you it's quite untrue. Luckily there are scientific studies available for example:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206712

    Also, your plant growth won't be adversely affected by changing the bulb out.

    Clearly despite being a novice keeper you have decided to ask for advice, then only hear what you want to hear. I can't force you to provide the best possible living conditions for your animals, but I would at least like your decisions to be based upon the correct information. The information is all out there, you obviously don't want to take my word for it, perhaps I could at least encourage you to do your own research?
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  14. #52

    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    I am considering your information as well as others, I'm not just hearing what I want, I want what is best for my animals and am doing my research months before even looking at buying, I'm just not hearing information that indicates uvb is as necessary as you make it out to be. Your study is for bearded dragons, even most new owners know that uvb is a requirement for them, they are diurnal lizards from Australia, very different from a nocturnal frog from central america. But I do find it interesting that that little uvb lighting maintains a beardies d3 levels, but mind you they are basking animals, finding a nice high point to sit under the light, and are adapted to absorbing uvb and producing d3 that way. The abstract also doesn't indicate the uvb concentration used (unless I missed it, but I don't have access to the full study either). Again though, I asked for advice, got a good variety of opinions, have done my own research on both opinions presented in this forum post, I'm not sure what else to say other than that you seem to be in disbelief that someone could come to a researched conclusion other than your own, which again, it has been proven through practice as well as studies that RETF don't require supplemental uvb. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge that a vast number of people have great success without it, including other posters on this topic, whose advice I have gone with over yours. That doesn't mean I haven't listened to you, I had to pick one or the other didn't I? It's insulting to the other forum posters as well as many successful breeders to say they are keeping their animals based on incorrect information.
    Also, plants tend to slow down under 5000k, at least in my experience. The room is dim, and growth has been much slower than I'm used to, even at 26w 6500k. Even if I bought all new plants that were larger, I've killed many a plant by taking a well established plant and moving it into dimmer lighting.

  15. #53
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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Mbd isn't easily seen in frogs it affects their jaws and palate it makes it spongy as well as the rest of the bones. So if you choose to just supplement check their jaw line regularly. I'm super grateful that my Mrs Bighead had good bones because it made it possible to avoid an incision to remove the rocks. When I had to give her meds I felt her jaw line and it was strong and firm.

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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    This thread got ugly for a few lol. But alot of good points and info out there. As priorly mentioned, personal preferance is the big ticket. Like me, do i need uvb on every tank in our little zoo? No. Do i prefer and personally think it helps, yes. These are choices we must all make as owners.

    No one likes a rebuttle that pops their bubble. How did lija, moster, and chipmunk put it when i joined.... ah yes, the proverbial 'grain of salt'. Never argued, just questioned and listened...

    Many people have success with just a supplement, alot of us like the additional safegaurd of the lights. There are so many sides of the uvb debate we may never really have 100% conclusive answers.

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  18. #55

    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    I think that's a good conclusion to what was supposed to be a short Q&A I think I'll leave it at that and remove myself from further discussion here. I appreciate all of your opinions and advice though.

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    Default Re: Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

    Let's keep in mind that there are varying and ever changing opinions on what may be the "best possible care." It comes as a result of personal experiences, reading studies and reports, and yes...even discussions with 'random people online.' I used to run by a very strict guideline of what MUST be done when caring for frogs. I understand now that there are many ways to create healthy and stress-free environments for our frogs. I have only been in the hobby for around 5 years, and just the way care routines have changed in that time period is astounding. In this hobby, we are all learning EVERY DAY in many different ways. No one has the perfect care routine. I do think that this would be a good thought line for everyone to follow.
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