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Thread: WTF has Red Leg

  1. #41

    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogger00 View Post
    I never did get him tested, I think that if I were to take him to a vet he would die of stress. And, what can a vet do besides tell me what I already know? Whatever it is, it is definitely worsened by stress. I will absolutely not be using colloidal silver again, after the reaction he had to it.
    Well, I'm sorry but I'm afraid I cannot agree with that attitude. What can the vet tell you? Well, he/she can examine and do tests which might actually find out the problem, instead of guessing at it. And he/she can give you a medication and dosage which is appropriate and backed by scientific literature.

    Yes, stress from anything, including a vet visit, might be a problem - but continuing home remedies in the hope that one of them gets lucky is not the answer.

    I really hope he gets better.

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  4. #42
    Frogger00
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    I know one drop is a little large, but not by much actually. 1/2 gallon: 1 drop melafix. His water dish is just under 1/2 a gallon. He does not have any open sores, which is really good! No I haven't been rinsing him afterwards. Why should I?

    I know you guys are going to give me a lot of flack for saying this, but a vet is no help. Frogs are extremely complex creatures and not enough research or testing has been put into them for me to trust a vets advice. The only thing a vet can tell me is that Oliver for sure has red leg, and that's it. He only meds he would be given are Baytril or Panacur, which I can easily get myself, and save 200$.

    Herpvet- you tell me a medication that has successfully treated redleg. To my knowledge, there is no cure for the time being. All I can do is trial and error, just like a vet would do.

    Honestly you guys, there is no 'specific' medication or treatment for red leg. I've done hours of research, and all I can do is try different treatments and hope for the best. I'm quite aware that he is close to he end of his life. Wether i medicate or not, he could die. On a positive note, I may be picking up a male in the near future for my breeding plans, as Oliver is obviously in no shape for breeding this year.

    Hope I didn't offend anyone, this is just how I see it.


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  5. #43
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    I agree, 110%

    Quote Originally Posted by Herpvet View Post
    Well, I'm sorry but I'm afraid I cannot agree with that attitude. What can the vet tell you? Well, he/she can examine and do tests which might actually find out the problem, instead of guessing at it. And he/she can give you a medication and dosage which is appropriate and backed by scientific literature.

    Yes, stress from anything, including a vet visit, might be a problem - but continuing home remedies in the hope that one of them gets lucky is not the answer.

    I really hope he gets better.
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


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  7. #44
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    Frogger00, it is imperative you get your frog tested so you know what it is you are dealing with, otherwise you could cause him more problems with improper treating regimes/medications.

    For actual "Red Leg Syndrome" look up "bacterial dermatosepticemia".

    "Red leg syndrome has been attributed to the bacterium
    Aeromonas hydrophila without appropriate
    diagnostic investigation. Clinical signs of red leg syndrome
    may be caused by other infectious agents including,
    but not limited to, ranaviruses (e.g., tadpole
    edema virus, frog virus-3), other bacteria (T able
    13.1), Chlamydia psittaci (Newcomer et ai., 1982),
    and Basidiobolus ranarum (Taylor et ai., 1995). Additionally
    there are noninfectious causes of ventral
    erythema that are usually transient, such as may be
    caused by contact with a heated substrate, chemical
    irritation or the stress of being handled."
    (Quote: Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, pg 162)

    Also read here: http://ilarjournal.oxfordjournals.or.../48/3/235.long

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogger00 View Post
    I know one drop is a little large, but not by much actually. 1/2 gallon: 1 drop melafix. His water dish is just under 1/2 a gallon. He does not have any open sores, which is really good! No I haven't been rinsing him afterwards. Why should I?

    I know you guys are going to give me a lot of flack for saying this, but a vet is no help. Frogs are extremely complex creatures and not enough research or testing has been put into them for me to trust a vets advice. The only thing a vet can tell me is that Oliver for sure has red leg, and that's it. He only meds he would be given are Baytril or Panacur, which I can easily get myself, and save 200$.

    Herpvet- you tell me a medication that has successfully treated redleg. To my knowledge, there is no cure for the time being. All I can do is trial and error, just like a vet would do.

    Honestly you guys, there is no 'specific' medication or treatment for red leg. I've done hours of research, and all I can do is try different treatments and hope for the best. I'm quite aware that he is close to he end of his life. Wether i medicate or not, he could die. On a positive note, I may be picking up a male in the near future for my breeding plans, as Oliver is obviously in no shape for breeding this year.

    Hope I didn't offend anyone, this is just how I see it.


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    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


  8. #45
    Frogger00
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    Quote Originally Posted by irThumper View Post
    Frogger00, it is imperative you get your frog tested so you know what it is you are dealing with, otherwise you could cause him more problems with improper treating regimes/medications.

    For actual "Red Leg Syndrome" look up "bacterial dermatosepticemia".

    "Red leg syndrome has been attributed to the bacterium
    Aeromonas hydrophila without appropriate
    diagnostic investigation. Clinical signs of red leg syndrome
    may be caused by other infectious agents including,
    but not limited to, ranaviruses (e.g., tadpole
    edema virus, frog virus-3), other bacteria (T able
    13.1), Chlamydia psittaci (Newcomer et ai., 1982),
    and Basidiobolus ranarum (Taylor et ai., 1995). Additionally
    there are noninfectious causes of ventral
    erythema that are usually transient, such as may be
    caused by contact with a heated substrate, chemical
    irritation or the stress of being handled."
    (Quote: Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, pg 162)

    Also read here: http://ilarjournal.oxfordjournals.or.../48/3/235.long
    Thank you for this information, but I already have read this. All illnesses in frogs are "cured" with either Baytril or Panacur. Both of which I can treat with myself, but I prefer natural treatments on my animals.


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  9. #46
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    You "natural" treatments are not working and you've admitted he will likely die...how is that a preferable result?

    I'm quite aware that he is close to he end of his life
    Please do not get another or breed them until you're ready to care for them properly.
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

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  11. #47

    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogger00 View Post
    Thank you for this information, but I already have read this. All illnesses in frogs are "cured" with either Baytril or Panacur. Both of which I can treat with myself, but I prefer natural treatments on my animals.
    Sorry but that's utter rubbish about baytril and panacur. There are plenty of drugs used with varying degrees of pharmacokinetic and anecdotal backup in amphibians.

    The whole point is that the vet does not have to use trial and error like you do - he/she can carry out appropriate tests. And even if resorting to educated guess (likely more educated than you, with all due respect), he/she has access to a wide range of drug treatment options, and is in a position to consider appropriate drug, dosage, route of administration and other factors which can all combine to maximise the chance for the animal.

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    If you are worried about the stress of a trip to the vet, keep in mind that all of these home treatments are also causing stress to his system. You say you think he's going to die anyway now, so the trip to the vet is necessary. I have nothing against natural remedies and use them myself often, but you need to accept when a problem is serious enough to require professional medical help, and to be honest your frog has been at that point for a while now. Shortly after I got my WTFs one of them looked so sick I thought he would die, but he survived the vet visit just fine and a cheap and simple course of baytril had him back to 100% health again. You CAN save Oliver's life, but you need to get him help from a vet.

    you mention the expense of the vet visit, so I wonder if this is really a matter of money? I understand being low on money, but you say you are going to buy another frog and breed (which will be an incredibly expensive endeavor) - put that money towards saving the frog you are already responsible for!

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  15. #49
    Frogger00
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    My treatments have helped tremendously. He's eating, croaking and even being a bit active. Why I have switched treatments however is because the tetracycline has only helped to a certain extent. Yes, he could die. He could also die from the vets clueless recommendations.

    Yes, a vet will use trial and error. They may find the exact problem, but treating the problem? Vets are as clueless as I am. After all, they are just people who have done years of research. They may have access to all these drugs, but will they choose the right one? Probably not.

    Keep in mind that I have only done tetracycline for 3 weeks, colloidal silver for 1 day, and melafix for 2 days. I know you guys don't agree with my decisions, but I'm using common sense here and realizing that most "exotic" vets are full of it.

    Taking Oliver to the vet will stress him out so much. He doesn't handle change well at all. Red leg, or whatever similar disease he is suffering from, is affected greatly by stress and fear. A vet doesn't know much more than I do, they really aren't the miracle workers you guys seem to think they are. Do you know how many vet horror stories I've heard? They think just because they have that title, that they know everything.

    It's not a money issue, I have no problem spending 200-500$ for my frogs health, but if it's not going to help, why would I just waste my money like that?


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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogger00 View Post
    Yes, a vet will use trial and error. They may find the exact problem, but treating the problem? Vets are as clueless as I am. After all, they are just people who have done years of research. They may have access to all these drugs, but will they choose the right one? Probably not.
    Vets may not be perfect, but don't you think their "years of research" (plus experience in practice) give them some knowledge that could help? You yourself wrote:
    I've done hours of research, and all I can do is try different treatments and hope for the best
    Do you not think that a vet's YEARS of research might have been more informative than your HOURS of research?

    And you doubt that they'll choose the right medication to save Oliver, but as far as I can see neither have you. If you don't have a vet you trust, call around and talk to some of them to see if they sound knowledgable. If you really want to test them, ask some sort of "trick question" about frog care to see if they answer correctly. Yes there may be a few "horror stories" of bad vets, but do you know how many people bring their exotics to the vet and have their pet's life saved? Covering the sides of his carrier will prevent him from seeing out and will lower his stress levels during a trip to the vet. And he will have much less stress in the long term once he is treated and healthy.

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  18. #51
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    ...........

    Ok, Frogger00, I could launch into a big spiel, but I have neither the time nor the energy right now... I am finishing dinner then have frogs to treat. Oh, and I'm lucky to have the proper meds and dosage with which to treat my frogs to protect them from Chytrid, as my non-exotics specific, primarily dog & cat, Beardie owning veterinarian, took the time and effort to research and confer with other specialists, and medical compounders, to make up a supply of ready to use Itraconazole bath for my frogs... saving me from guessing on how much aerosol Lamasil to use, and risking having my frogs absorb any ether, alcohol or other potentially threatening ingredients in that product that may or may not gas off of it when I go to collect the medication into useable form. And guess what, my vet understands how critical stress can be to the frogs and doesn't require they come in if I can provide good current vid and photos. If it was absolutely necessary for him to see them, however, I would bring them in.

    That's all I have to say about that...
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


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  20. #52
    Frogger00
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    My point was that even though vets have all this schooling, there isn't much out there about frogs for them to learn. You are right in that I do not know the right treatment to give him, but that's because there is no right treatment. I'd much rather treat him with meds that I know then give him some concoction the vet whips up. Frogs aren't dumb, he would feel the movement of the carrier and see that his surroundings are different even if I did cover all the sides. Frogs are not like your typical pet as most of you should know, and their is little to no information on their healthcare.

    Irthumper, that is good for you and your vet. Sorry I didn't realize natural oils and other substances gives off alcohol and life threatening ingredients. After all, I would say that on the ingredient part of the package. But, it was nice hearing about your inexperienced veterinarian who is fooling around with medications and hoping for the best.


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  21. #53

    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    Are we seriously doing this again? The same conversation with the same person? Didn't you beg to have your last username deleted, so you could start this one anonymously, so no one knew it was you? I will say this once, if I find ANOTHER post asking to delete your name because you are too upset to stay on the forum, there will be no deletion, but a ban AND an IP BAN, so you are unable to open another account. And if I find you somehow managed to open an account from another or proxy IP, I will ban that as well. I have no life and can ban all day long.

    I am locking this thread, because it has no longer become productive.


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  23. #54
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF has Red Leg

    We cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. Therefore, I see this thread as pointless and will only cause anger and arguments. As a result, I've locked it.

    I, once again, recommend to you frogger, not to get anymore frogs or breed them until you're going to provide them the proper care. I hope your experimentation works, for the frog's sake.

    ETA: I guess we're on the same page here, Bill. LOL
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



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